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Thread: Palestine Israel

  1. #161

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I'd like to know why we haven't had the same debate and rage about Turkeys incursion into Northern Iraq and the twenty thousand deaths including women and children, thousands March in cities around the world because of Israel incursions and actions ,anyone explain why there is a disproportionate outrage?

    Plus China incursions.

    Plus Russian incursions.

    It's fairly clear folk hate the Israelis and Jews.
    I have put forward a possible answer earlier on...

    Significant parts of the history of Europe is how badly Jewish people were treated (Nazism is a tiny part of it) which i) emboldened the want for security of own state but also ii) makes the creation of that state feel like an extended part of European history.

    The UK was heavily involved in the area we now know as Israel/Palestine and hasty exit helped create the vacuum for an ugly conflict between the two nations. Therefore creation of Israel and following conflict is part of the UK's history.

    The UK is close allies with the USA which is an extremely close ally of Israel. Therefore Israel is part of the UK's ongoing international relations.

    Does Turkey and Iraq have such historical and current prominence to Europe and the UK? Regardless, I think for the most those concerned with ongoing treatment (it doesn't end with ceasefire) of Palestinian people are concerned with the behaviour rather than the flags involved so would welcome a thread on the subjects you raised. I'll meet you there if you want to start one?

  2. #162

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp_1927 View Post
    I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. There are so many great things about Israel, its a lively democracy and home to fantastic world beating cities like Tel aviv. I hold them to a higher standard than Turkey and China, and I hope that they start to behave a bit better in lots of areas
    Behaving better such as not killing kids

    I mean even the most precise of weapons feck up once in a while but this has been going on for years

  3. #163

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp_1927 View Post
    Got no time for the settlers and settlements whatsoever. But a few people seem to want to suggest that the whole state of Israel is on stolen land, which is quite frankly bollocks. Let's not pretend that all the hatred towards them from their neighbours is down to settlements and continued encroachment. Ham's and Hezbollah hate them because they are Jews, and because they exist as Jews. Criticism of the excesses of the Israeli right is completely justified, but to many like Sludge go for crass generalisations that attempt to deligitimise the whole country
    I think moving in hundreds of thousands of people from America, Russia , Australia into lands previously occupied by the Palestinians, all because its , according to the Jews, their homeland ........its all utter horse shit this religion nonsense ......is only going to end one way

    Why isn't Palestine a legitimate country ?

    Why does Israel have a right to exist .....and expand ....but the Palestinians are left to suffer ?

    There is one rule for Israel and another for everybody else

    Thank god for the moderate Jewish community in Israel and all around the world who are outraged by the continual muscle flexing of Benyamin and his acolytes

  4. #164

    Re: Palestine Israel

    if Israel is such a lively democracy how come its been accused of breaking the Geneva convention so many times and has been investigated for war crimes ?

  5. #165

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    I think moving in hundreds of thousands of people from America, Russia , Australia into lands previously occupied by the Palestinians, all because its , according to the Jews, their homeland ........its all utter horse shit this religion nonsense ......is only going to end one way

    Why isn't Palestine a legitimate country ?

    Why does Israel have a right to exist .....and expand ....but the Palestinians are left to suffer ?

    There is one rule for Israel and another for everybody else

    Thank god for the moderate Jewish community in Israel and all around the world who are outraged by the continual muscle flexing of Benyamin and his acolytes
    I won't disagree that there should be a country of Palestine. I think the Israelis should give up the illegal settlements in order for that to happen. But Israel was under attack long before it started the creeping settlement programme. The threats to Israel won't go away if/when they give up the settlements.
    I'm happy to disagree with settlement building and I'm happy to disagree with their recent bombing of gaza .

    Not prepared to swallow bullshit like the idea that Hamas rockets are just big fireworks, or that Hamas only dislike Israel because of settlements. To believe that requires you to infantilise the Palestinians and to completely disregard what the likes of Hamas and Islamic jihad declare themselves.

  6. #166

    Re: Palestine Israel



    food for thought

  7. #167

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp_1927 View Post
    I won't disagree that there should be a country of Palestine. I think the Israelis should give up the illegal settlements in order for that to happen. But Israel was under attack long before it started the creeping settlement programme. The threats to Israel won't go away if/when they give up the settlements.
    I'm happy to disagree with settlement building and I'm happy to disagree with their recent bombing of gaza .

    Not prepared to swallow bullshit like the idea that Hamas rockets are just big fireworks, or that Hamas only dislike Israel because of settlements. To believe that requires you to infantilise the Palestinians and to completely disregard what the likes of Hamas and Islamic jihad declare themselves.
    well the rockets fired by Hamas are hardly the 2021 high precision stuff Israel has

    Jews and Arabs have lived side by side for hundreds of years in Iraq , Iran , Syria

    Since the creation of Israel its all gone ties up

    And since the increasing settlement encroachment its escalated

    Its all bullshit based on cobblers written in the bible

    Its 2021 and its still going on

    Its never going to end

  8. #168

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by WJ99mobile View Post
    Iíll admit I donít have enough knowledge of the subject to fully back up my thoughts but what Israel is doing to Palestine, on the face of it is bloody awful.

    It does seem to me that the Palestinianís donít help themselves by sparking some tensions but Israel do look like bully boys.

    I donít understand how the world leaders are not issuing comments or sanctions as they would if it was another country.
    If Israel stopped bullying Palestine and the Palestinians got more of their land back would Palestine then stop funding and supporting terrorism. would, could a Palestinian government rid the world of Hamas or would it simply move operations to another destination?

  9. #169

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    well the rockets fired by Hamas are hardly the 2021 high precision stuff Israel has

    Jews and Arabs have lived side by side for hundreds of years in Iraq , Iran , Syria

    Since the creation of Israel its all gone ties up

    And since the increasing settlement encroachment its escalated

    Its all bullshit based on cobblers written in the bible

    Its 2021 and its still going on

    Its never going to end
    They haven't lived side by side peacefully though sludge. The Jews have been expelled from the Levant on numerous occasions, either by various caliphates, the Christians or the Ottomans.

    Stop trying to rewrite history.

  10. #170

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    if Israel is such a lively democracy how come its been accused of breaking the Geneva convention so many times and has been investigated for war crimes ?
    This is a good point sludge.

    Just because a government is democratically elected doesn't mean that country demonstrates the virtues and standards that are globally, rightly or wrongly, expected by a 'lively democracy'.

    'Capatalist democracy' isn't a panacea for how countries should be run.

    I understand that in the UK, we are kinda in a glass house here though.

  11. #171

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    well the rockets fired by Hamas are hardly the 2021 high precision stuff Israel has

    Jews and Arabs have lived side by side for hundreds of years in Iraq , Iran , Syria

    Since the creation of Israel its all gone ties up

    And since the increasing settlement encroachment its escalated

    Its all bullshit based on cobblers written in the bible

    Its 2021 and its still going on

    Its never going to end
    Between 1940-1970 over 800k Jews had to leave Arab controlled lands. Quite a few settled in Israel.

    Prior to this time many Arab lands were controlled by the French and British, and Jews could live peacefully. Following pan Arab nationalism, many Jews were expelled, being forced to leave their property. This has happened within living memory.

    When you consider that throughout history the Jews have been expelled more times than you would care to count (believe it or not Jews were expelled by General Grant from a few border states in the US Civil War)., it comes as no surprise that the Jews want a place they can call their home. It should also come as no surprise that many Jews don't trust the Arabs, a group of people who have persecuted the Jews in recent times, invaded their nation twice and, for a sizeable proportion of the Arab nation, wish to see Israel removed from existence.

  12. #172

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Feedback View Post
    Between 1940-1970 over 800k Jews had to leave Arab controlled lands. Quite a few settled in Israel.

    Prior to this time many Arab lands were controlled by the French and British, and Jews could live peacefully. Following pan Arab nationalism, many Jews were expelled, being forced to leave their property. This has happened within living memory.

    When you consider that throughout history the Jews have been expelled more times than you would care to count (believe it or not Jews were expelled by General Grant from a few border states in the US Civil War)., it comes as no surprise that the Jews want a place they can call their home. It should also come as no surprise that many Jews don't trust the Arabs, a group of people who have persecuted the Jews in recent times, invaded their nation twice and, for a sizeable proportion of the Arab nation, wish to see Israel removed from existence.
    Religion

    All bollocks

  13. #173

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Of course Palestine should be recognised as a separate country.

    However, people are deluded if they think Hamas or Israel really want that

    The Palestinian people do as does most of the world... But Israel and Hamas do not, despite their counter narrative.

    Think about it... If Israel and the rest of the world recognise Palestine as a sovereign state, then the persecution and crimes against Palestinians will then be war crimes. Currently, as silly as it sounds, they are not defined by international law as war crimes.

    I clashed with an evangelical conservative Christian about it this morning, who stormed out of the gym we were using. Batshit crazy. Their belief is tied up with the physical return of Jesus (from the clouds), the last days and the destruction of Israel. Theology that has only existed for a few hundred years. No serious theologian takes seriously apart from untrained born again Christian pastors and followers.

    So add 'end times' into the mix and you have some very strong feelings

    Interestingly, these views were held by a hell of a lot of people in the Trump administration.

  14. #174

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    well the rockets fired by Hamas are hardly the 2021 high precision stuff Israel has

    Jews and Arabs have lived side by side for hundreds of years in Iraq , Iran , Syria

    Since the creation of Israel its all gone ties up

    And since the increasing settlement encroachment its escalated

    Its all bullshit based on cobblers written in the bible

    Its 2021 and its still going on

    Its never going to end
    Lots has gone tits up since the creation of Israel. That doesn't mean it was allndown to their bad behaviour though, some was but lots was down to the fact that the Muslim population were taught to hate jews.

    I may be wrong, but it seems a bit like you have as much of a problem with the existence of Israel, as you do with their actions.
    As for the religion is bollocks idea. Well again I'm 100 % in agreement with you. Only problem is , you seem to use that as a cop out for any bad behaviour from the Arab side. Then zero in again on any Israeli aggression.

  15. #175

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by AfricanBluebird View Post
    Of course Palestine should be recognised as a separate country.

    However, people are deluded if they think Hamas or Israel really want that

    The Palestinian people do as does most of the world... But Israel and Hamas do not, despite their counter narrative.

    Think about it... If Israel and the rest of the world recognise Palestine as a sovereign state, then the persecution and crimes against Palestinians will then be war crimes. Currently, as silly as it sounds, they are not defined by international law as war crimes.

    I clashed with an evangelical conservative Christian about it this morning, who stormed out of the gym we were using. Batshit crazy. Their belief is tied up with the physical return of Jesus (from the clouds), the last days and the destruction of Israel. Theology that has only been interrupted that way for a few hundred years and no theologian takes seriously.

    So add 'end times' into the mix and you have some very strong feelings

    Interestingly, these views were held by a hell of a lot of people in the Trump administration.
    Very strange generalisation there.

    Hamas don't want 2 States- you're correct there

    Palestinian people do want 2 states - incorrect, many of them do want 2 states . But many are happy to support the Hamas agenda. They want to exterminate the Jews rather than have them next door.

    Israel doesn't- incorrect
    many in Israel do. In much the same way as many Palestinians do. In fact with both Israelis and Palestinians, it tends to depend on when the poll is taken. The extreme right of Israelis, and people like Netanyahu who enable them don't want 2 states. So if by Israel, you meant the current Israeli government you would be correct.

    As for the counter narrative. There is very little from Hamas that has ever even pretended they would support a 2 state solution. The odd quote has suggested they would accept a long term ceasefire with an Israeli state. Their manifesto continues to call for the destruction of the 'zionist entity' however.

    I'm a bit more optimistic than most about the potential for a settlement.

    To stay in the spirit of crass generalisation:

    Both sides are losing the support that allows them to behave badly.

    Many of the Arab states have grown sick and tired of the Palestinians . They see that they are willing to live in shit conditions as long as they think they have a possibility of exterminating the Jews . They see that the Palestinians are more interested in destroying Israel than improving their own lot. Qatar and the UAE have both reprimanded Hamas for the rockets this time. Development funding is going to be linked to Hamas behaving better.

    As for the extreme right-wing Israelis. They decided to cosy up to Trump. By doing that they have burned a hell of a lot of moderate bridges in the US. Defensive Israeli capabilities will still be supported. But I think the Israeli right now know that they can't count on complete US support for everything they do. Biden has been clear on this, and many in the Democrats have been even more forthright. Hopefully the next 4 or 8 years will see a rolling back of settlements and some concrete pullbacks from East Jerusalem

  16. #176

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp_1927 View Post
    Very strange generalisation there.

    Hamas don't want 2 States- you're correct there

    Palestinian people do want 2 states - incorrect, many of them do want 2 states . But many are happy to support the Hamas agenda. They want to exterminate the Jews rather than have them next door.

    Israel doesn't- incorrect
    many in Israel do. In much the same way as many Palestinians do. In fact with both Israelis and Palestinians, it tends to depend on when the poll is taken. The extreme right of Israelis, and people like Netanyahu who enable them don't want 2 states. So if by Israel, you meant the current Israeli government you would be correct.

    As for the counter narrative. There is very little from Hamas that has ever even pretended they would support a 2 state solution. The odd quote has suggested they would accept a long term ceasefire with an Israeli state. Their manifesto continues to call for the destruction of the 'zionist entity' however.

    I'm a bit more optimistic than most about the potential for a settlement.

    To stay in the spirit of crass generalisation:

    Both sides are losing the support that allows them to behave badly.

    Many of the Arab states have grown sick and tired of the Palestinians . They see that they are willing to live in shit conditions as long as they think they have a possibility of exterminating the Jews . They see that the Palestinians are more interested in destroying Israel than improving their own lot. Qatar and the UAE have both reprimanded Hamas for the rockets this time. Development funding is going to be linked to Hamas behaving better.

    As for the extreme right-wing Israelis. They decided to cosy up to Trump. By doing that they have burned a hell of a lot of moderate bridges in the US. Defensive Israeli capabilities will still be supported. But I think the Israeli right now know that they can't count on complete US support for everything they do. Biden has been clear on this, and many in the Democrats have been even more forthright. Hopefully the next 4 or 8 years will see a rolling back of settlements and some concrete pullbacks from East Jerusalem
    You've made as many generalisations as me.
    The surrounding Arab nations never cared about Palestinians as people, they helped keep them poor and therefore angry at Israel as pawns for their anti- Israeli agenda. Israel's continued illegal encroachment is perhaps a land grab before they are forced to stop, so grabbing as much as possible to use in future negotiations.

    However, your last paragraph is, on my more positive days, something I agreement .. a hopeful solution. Support for israel's actions is waining and Hamas are gaining no friends. But Israel have to roll back the settlements and Hamas has to be dismantled for peace to ever work.

  17. #177

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by AfricanBluebird View Post
    You've made as many generalisations as me.
    The surrounding Arab nations never cared about Palestinians as people, they helped keep them poor and therefore angry at Israel as pawns for their anti- Israeli agenda. Israel's continued illegal encroachment is perhaps a land grab before they are forced to stop, so grabbing as much as possible to use in future negotiations.

    However, your last paragraph is, on my more positive days, something I agreement .. a hopeful solution. Support for israel's actions is waining and Hamas are gaining no friends. But Israel have to roll back the settlements and Hamas has to be dismantled for peace to ever work.
    Hopefully it will start falling into place. Before this kick off, Israel were only days away from a coalition that got rid of Netanyahu and that also included the Arab parties. Israel pulling out of settlements and East Jerusalem needs to happen soon.

  18. #178

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp_1927 View Post
    Lots has gone tits up since the creation of Israel. That doesn't mean it was allndown to their bad behaviour though, some was but lots was down to the fact that the Muslim population were taught to hate jews.

    I may be wrong, but it seems a bit like you have as much of a problem with the existence of Israel, as you do with their actions.
    As for the religion is bollocks idea. Well again I'm 100 % in agreement with you. Only problem is , you seem to use that as a cop out for any bad behaviour from the Arab side. Then zero in again on any Israeli aggression.
    No , the Palestinians are hemmed in and are fighting back

    I would do the same

  19. #179

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Feedback View Post
    Between 1940-1970 over 800k Jews had to leave Arab controlled lands. Quite a few settled in Israel.

    Prior to this time many Arab lands were controlled by the French and British, and Jews could live peacefully. Following pan Arab nationalism, many Jews were expelled, being forced to leave their property. This has happened within living memory.

    When you consider that throughout history the Jews have been expelled more times than you would care to count (believe it or not Jews were expelled by General Grant from a few border states in the US Civil War)., it comes as no surprise that the Jews want a place they can call their home. It should also come as no surprise that many Jews don't trust the Arabs, a group of people who have persecuted the Jews in recent times, invaded their nation twice and, for a sizeable proportion of the Arab nation, wish to see Israel removed from existence.
    So the question is, do you think that Israel is justified in what it is-has done in annexing Palestinian land, and forcing palestinians out of their homes? It's enough to understand why this situation has arisen, but do you think it's justified?

  20. #180

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Religion

    All bollocks
    It's not that simple, is it?

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