Tory MP hounded off campus for describing women as adult human females.

[Eric Cartman]

If Eric and Jon think a White Supremacist or extremist islamic preacher are comparable to someone who happens to vote for the Labour or Tory party then you are many things as well as being a bigot.

For a start, in almost every circumstance the two things you cite are illegal, whereas little Jonny who loves your daughter but happens to vote Tory cos he thinks they will be better for the economy or something is not.

Such a preposterous example that rather proves my point really, so thanks for that

In what circumstances is it illegal to be a white supremacist or to preach a more radical version of Islam in the UK? It might be illegal to join certain groups but I don't remember people being convicted for having a belief or opinion.

It is only a preposterous example to somebody who sees everything in black and white, right or wrong. It is a spectrum and we are just talking about where you draw the line, which is going to be personal preference.

Take Zouma for instance. Some people couldn't give a **** that he booted his cat across the floor, they can hold that view but I don't care what their reason is for thinking that, I won't be their friend. They can be friends with each other and laugh about abusing animals together.

I have a pal who tries his best to defend some of the terrible shit Boris has done, we just don't talk politics. My personal line is somewhere beyond that so he and I can still get on but something doesn't need to be illegal for me to disagree with it enough that I don't want to involve myself with people who agree with it.

[JamesWales]

In what circumstances is it illegal to be a white supremacist or to preach a more radical version of Islam in the UK? It might be illegal to join certain groups but I don't remember people being convicted for having a belief or opinion.

It is only a preposterous example to somebody who sees everything in black and white, right or wrong. It is a spectrum and we are just talking about where you draw the line, which is going to be personal preference.

Take Zouma for instance. Some people couldn't give a **** that he booted his cat across the floor, they can hold that view but I don't care what their reason is for thinking that, I won't be their friend. They can be friends with each other and laugh about abusing animals together.

I have a pal who tries his best to defend some of the terrible shit Boris has done, we just don't talk politics. My personal line is somewhere beyond that so he and I can still get on but something doesn't need to be illegal for me to disagree with it enough that I don't want to involve myself with people who agree with it.

Are you seriously continuing down this line of comparing white supremacy or radical islamic preaching to voting for the Tories or Labour? And you are accusing me of black and white thinking? That is the exact opposite of what I'm doing.

[Eric Cartman]

Are you seriously continuing down this line of comparing white supremacy or radical islamic preaching to voting for the Tories or Labour? And you are accusing me of black and white thinking? That is the exact opposite of what I'm doing.

Either you don't get it or you don't want to get it. I'll try one last time. I'm not comparing it, I am acknowledging that every view exists along a spectrum and different people will draw their line in different places.

It is black/white to suggest that the line is the same for everybody. For instance, somebody could well make the argument that Labour and the Tories have both changed significantly over the past few years and therefore so has their acceptance of people who share common values with each party.

This is painful to be honest James. I don't think you are an idiot so I have to assume you are deliberately misinterpreting what I am saying in order to feel as though you are 'winning'. If that is the case then crack on because it is completely pointless talking to you.

[JamesWales]

Either you don't get it or you don't want to get it. I'll try one last time. I'm not comparing it, I am acknowledging that every view exists along a spectrum and different people will draw their line in different places.

It is black/white to suggest that the line is the same for everybody. For instance, somebody could well make the argument that Labour and the Tories have both changed significantly over the past few years and therefore so has their acceptance of people who share common values with each party.

This is painful to be honest James. I don't think you are an idiot so I have to assume you are deliberately misinterpreting what I am saying in order to feel as though you are 'winning'. If that is the case then crack on because it is completely pointless talking to you.

You are crackers Eric. Someone on here saying it's legit to dislike people because of who they vote for I call them out on that, you then ramble on about god knows what.

Of course there are spectrums. Normal people think in spectrums and understand that. Bigots don't. They will use a binary determinant (race, ethnicity, religion, political party) and judge someone on that.

That you have to bring in white supremacy shows how weak the argument you are making is. I fully understand that people draw their line at different places. I get that, but if you draw the line that you would object to your son or daughter marrying a Tory or Labour voter then you are a bigot (and a fool) and bigotry isn't acceptable, end of. It's an arsehole thing to be.

[Eric Cartman]

You are crackers Eric. Someone on here saying it's legit to dislike people because of who they vote for I call them out on that, you then ramble on about god knows what.

Of course there are spectrums. Normal people think in spectrums and understand that. Bigots don't. They will use a binary determinant (race, ethnicity, religion, political party) and judge someone on that.

That you have to bring in white supremacy shows how weak the argument you are making is. I fully understand that people draw their line at different places. I get that, but if you draw the line that you would object to your son or daughter marrying a Tory or Labour voter then you are a bigot (and a fool) and bigotry isn't acceptable, end of. It's an arsehole thing to be.

That is how the world works unfortunately James. How many Jews marry Muslims? How many evangelical Christians marry atheists. Do you consider every religious person who deliberately chooses to marry within their faith a bigot? People divide along ideological lines. It isn't a massive shock to me that Britain has become this politically divided that political views are now as entrenched as religious views.

[JamesWales]

That is how the world works unfortunately James. How many Jews marry Muslims? How many evangelical Christians marry atheists. Do you consider every religious person who deliberately chooses to marry within their faith a bigot? People divide along ideological lines. It isn't a massive shock to me that Britain has become this politically divided that political views are now as entrenched as religious views.

Yes, I know. And it's not a good thing and when it creeps in it should be challenged and called out. There are lots of bad things in the world, that alas is a given. Doing nothing about them is a bad thing.

Britain becoming a more politically sectarian country comes with wholly negative consequences which is why we should push against it. Debate - yes. Disagree - yes. Say you would be upset if your son was in love with and married a Tory or Labour or Remain or Leave voter? No chance!

[the other bob wilson]

Looking at the definition of the word “Bigot” posted earlier in the thread, the Biblical term “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” springs to mind. Given the way I bang on about Johnson and his party on here, I’m a bigot based on that definition and, more than that, I’d say that the person who is accusing others of being one in this thread is one as well considering the way he, almost without fail, springs to the Government’s defence whenever they are criticised.

[JamesWales]

Looking at the definition of the word “Bigot” posted earlier in the thread, the Biblical term “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” springs to mind. Given the way I bang on about Johnson and his party on here, I’m a bigot based on that definition and, more than that, I’d say that the person who is accusing others of being one in this thread is one as well considering the way he, almost without fail, springs to the Government’s defence whenever they are criticised.

Yeah I don't think sometimes defending the government in a debate if I think someone has posted something that is wrong or I disagree with is quite the same as hating on someone for how they happen to vote in elections tbf.

That is a good bible quote though.

[the other bob wilson]

Yeah I don't think sometimes defending the government in a debate if I think someone has posted something that is wrong or I disagree with is quite the same as hating on someone for how they happen to vote in elections tbf.

That is a good bible quote though.

If I think that definition describes me to an extent, I’m not sure why you should think it doesn’t describe yourself .By that definition, anyone who argues from a preset ideological or political position could be called a bigot - as in so many things, it’s a question of degree, I’d never considered myself, or you, a bigot before and, in truth, I don’t now, but that definition does sound a bit like me.

[Eric Cartman]

Yeah I don't think sometimes defending the government in a debate if I think someone has posted something that is wrong or I disagree with is quite the same as hating on someone for how they [B]happen[\b] to vote in elections tbf.

That is a good bible quote though.

Maybe that is one of the issues here, people attach very different levels of importance to politics. For some people it is life or death, for others it is basically just ticking a box every few years depending on how they feel that day.

[life on mars]

Maybe that is one of the issues here, people attach very different levels of importance to politics. For some people it is life or death, for others it is basically just ticking a box every few years depending on how they feel that day.

Think it also becomes very personal for them , due to their particular circumstances, and we should all consider and respect that I guess

[JamesWales]

Maybe that is one of the issues here, people attach very different levels of importance to politics. For some people it is life or death, for others it is basically just ticking a box every few years depending on how they feel that day.

Of course, and that goes without saying. Although the same goes for religion. That doesn't make judging or discriminating against someone on that basis acceptable, positive or progressive or a nice thing to do.

I love politics, but I respect all opinions and don't judge someones character on how they happen to vote - that's not right or fair.

[delmbox]

Of course, and that goes without saying. Although the same goes for religion. That doesn't make judging or discriminating against someone on that basis acceptable, positive or progressive or a nice thing to do.

I love politics, but I respect all opinions and don't judge someones character on how they happen to vote - that's not right or fair.

I think this is what Eric was getting at with his black and white comment though, if you just say "I respect all opinions" you by definition respect the opinion of a white supremacist no? Or talking in political terms, say the BNP? And in your view if someone doesn't, or dislikes someone purely for their membership of the BNP does that make them a bigot?

[JamesWales]

I think this is what Eric was getting at with his black and white comment though, if you just say "I respect all opinions" you by definition respect the opinion of a white supremacist no? Or talking in political terms, say the BNP? And in your view if someone doesn't, or dislikes someone purely for their membership of the BNP does that make them a bigot?

Yes, I understand that wider point, but we weren't talking about the BNP or white supremacists though. We were talking about a survey that referred to Labour, Tories, Remain and Leave voters, so that was a strawman argument.

The BNP and white supremacists DO discriminate based on peoples characteristics. To oppose that is fair enough (although I still wouldnt go so far as claiming every element of that person is bad) but that isn't the case with the parties or positions being discussed here.

Of course, some will seek to demonise views, as others seek to demonise religions, which is a part of the whole thought process of having bigoted opinions. But that doesn't make it so. If I don't want my son to marry a muslim because she's a muslim, I may well think it, but that doesn't make my opinion right, fair, just, moderate.

My point is that people who do judge on whether someone votes Labour, Tory, Leave, Remain etc are wrong to do so, and that they should be more open minded in their approach. I'm not saying it's as bad as other forms of bigotry but it's cut from the same cloth (in my opinion) and is a cause of just as much discord and hatred in the world as other forms of discrimination

They are free to disagree, but I think in the instances discussed it absolutely counts as bigotry.

And yeah, maybe people should moderate their language a little on all this. That more than anything is the point I am making, and will always make.

[delmbox]

My point is that people who do judge on whether someone votes Labour, Tory, Leave, Remain etc are wrong to do so

And my question is what does this etc refer to being that you respect everybody's opinions? where's the cutoff?

[Eric Cartman]

Yes, I understand that wider point, but we weren't talking about the BNP or white supremacists though. We were talking about a survey that referred to Labour, Tories, Remain and Leave voters, so that was a strawman argument.

The BNP and white supremacists DO discriminate based on peoples characteristics. To oppose that is fair enough (although I still wouldnt go so far as claiming every element of that person is bad) but that isn't the case with the parties or positions being discussed here.

Of course, some will seek to demonise views, as others seek to demonise religions, which is a part of the whole thought process of having bigoted opinions. But that doesn't make it so. If I don't want my son to marry a muslim because she's a muslim, I may well think it, but that doesn't make my opinion right, fair, just, moderate.

My point is that people who do judge on whether someone votes Labour, Tory, Leave, Remain etc are wrong to do so, and that they should be more open minded in their approach. I'm not saying it's as bad as other forms of bigotry but it's cut from the same cloth (in my opinion) and is a cause of just as much discord and hatred in the world as other forms of discrimination

They are free to disagree, but I think in the instances discussed it absolutely counts as bigotry.

And yeah, maybe people should moderate their language a little on all this. That more than anything is the point I am making, and will always make.

It isn't a straw man at all, I was trying to tease out exactly what delmbox says above. Essentially, do I need to be tolerant of every view along the spectrum to not be a bigot in your eyes or are you only referring to non-acceptance of those with 'moderate' views.

[HiVis]

What? I don’t understand what your getting at. The only person I can remember posting “kill the Tories” is that poster called native hipster or something like that - a look at his posting history will tell you it is very unlikely that he’s being serious in saying that.

My post is quite clear - when someone posts "kill the tories", you believe they don't really mean it. I agree.

I do wonder if you extend a similar courtesy to those who post similar comments aimed at other groups.

[the other bob wilson]

My post is quite clear - when someone posts "kill the tories", you believe they don't really mean it. I agree.

I do wonder if you extend a similar courtesy to those who post similar comments aimed at other groups.

So you think I’d believe someone on here who said “kill the socialists”?

[HiVis]

Eric
Do you think it's normal behaviour to ostracise family member based on who they support / the music they listen to / the party they vote for?

James
What would it take for you to accept Eric's view is as valid as your own ?

[JamesWales]

Eric
Do you think it's normal behaviour to ostracise family member based on who they support / the music they listen to / the party they vote for?

James
What would it take for you to accept Eric's view is as valid as your own ?

Good question. By default, yes Erics view is as valid as my own, of course. I don't agree with his argument as I believe it to be a false equivalence, but his view is as valid.

As to whether someone who would be 'upset' if their daughter married someone because they had voted Tory, again, I have to concede that their view is equally valid. I profoundly disagree with them, feel sorry for them, think they are probably being unfair to their daughter and future son in law and all the rest of it, but I do believe that all opinions are equally valid within the confines of the law.

[HiVis]

Good question. By default, yes Erics view is as valid as my own, of course. I don't agree with his argument as I believe it to be a false equivalence, but his view is as valid.

As to whether someone who would be 'upset' if their daughter married someone because they had voted Tory, again, I have to concede that their view is equally valid. I profoundly disagree with them, feel sorry for them, think they are probably being unfair to their daughter and future son in law and all the rest of it, but I do believe that all opinions are equally valid within the confines of the law.

So if you accept Eric's opinion is valid, why spend half your life trying to change it? This is just not going to happen. Few people ever change their minds in internet threads, yet people from all sides spend their time ramming their point home in the vain hope that someone will acknowledge their own thought process was flawed all along.

[jon1959]

So if you accept Eric's opinion is valid, why spend half your life trying to change it? This is just not going to happen. Few people ever change their minds in internet threads, yet people from all sides spend their time ramming their point home in the vain hope that someone will acknowledge their own thought process was flawed all along.

The irony here really is lost on you.

[HiVis]

The irony here really is lost on you.

oh don't worry, I'm far too long in the tooth to understand few if any ever change their opinions via internet discourse. And I'm not here to change anyone's mind, nor am I going to try as I'd have better luck trying to push water uphill.

[Eric Cartman]

Eric
Do you think it's normal behaviour to ostracise family member based on who they support / the music they listen to / the party they vote for?

James
What would it take for you to accept Eric's view is as valid as your own ?

Me? I don't really have a view. It's probably quite normal but not likely to be a good thing.

[life on mars]

It seems one of the alleged trans protest Zahawi faced was the son Yvette Cooper and Ed Balls they chanted transphobe' and 'Tory scum'

He was heckled for his views on trans , he then sits down to cheers from Labour activists , the question was it trans protest , Tory scum protest , an attack on free free speech , one may never know or want to know .

Labour has a real issue with this subject matter and I do think they need tom tread careful as a lot of women do consider themselves as adult human females.