Tory MP hounded off campus for describing women as adult human females.

[JamesWales]

Thanks for that. As expected a case study in misuse of language and smug posturing for effect. Go on then, I will bite.

To be clear I do not ‘fear’ Tories - I respect a few but dislike their core values and their policies. Some I despise (along with a few in other parties). My dislike comes from what they do and say and my experience of them over a lifetime - not for the place or culture they were born into.

That is not bigotry.

Your position is once again one where you get offended if someone will not follow your twisted version of ‘even handedness’. You know - flat earthers views as valid as astronomers, white supremacists views as valid as anti racists. That nonsense mixed up with knee jerk defence of the government in any thread where they are challenged or ridiculed is your signature response.

To get away from your distortion of terms like bigotry remember the word that started this was ‘upset’. Many things are upsetting - from A&E waiting times to cup final penalty misses, but upset is certainly justified if someone close to me chooses to adopt a set of political beliefs or cultures that I have spent my life campaigning against.

That may make me intolerant of selfish individualism or Little Englander nationalism - I’ll take that happily. Intolerance is not bigotry.

Defend it all you like, but you justified people being upset over who someone marries based on whether they voted for a centre-right or centre-left party and on that characteristic alone. Not on the basis of their character or a thousand other aspects of their personality.

There's no smugness involved, although I sense the smugness in which you paraded that view may have subsided.

I'm just calling you out and saying, based on your own words, you are almost the dictionary definition of a bigot.

[jon1959]

Defend it all you like, but you justified people being upset over who someone marries based on whether they voted for a centre-right or centre-left party and on that characteristic alone. Not on the basis of their character or a thousand other aspects of their personality.

There's no smugness involved, although I sense the smugness in which you paraded that view may have subsided.

I'm just calling you out and saying, based on your own words, you are almost the dictionary definition of a bigot.

So you consider a set of political beliefs to be the equivalent of a thousand ‘other aspects’ of personality? Good grief. That helps to explain the distortions in your dictionary. Have you looked up ‘false equivalence’? Or ‘upset’?

[JamesWales]

So you consider a set of political beliefs to be the equivalent of a thousand ‘other aspects’ of personality? Good grief. That helps to explain the distortions in your dictionary. Have you looked up ‘false equivalence’? Or ‘upset’?

Not everyone who votes for a party sometimes as infrequently as once every five years holds the same fundamental outlook on life as every other of the millions of people who happen to do the same. Not all Labour voters are the same. Not all Lib Dems. Not all Tories. There will be uncaring people, selfish people, stupid people, kind, tolerant, intelligent people amongst them all. Some will be complete arseholes, but most are decent people who just happen to have a different opinion to you.

In the vast majority of cases, that view will be perfectly reasonable and it is YOUR opinion and judgement of them that is entirely distorted. They may vote Tory to lower unemployment or because they like the MP in question. Who are you to judge them for it, least of all cast shame on someone for loving someone merely because of how their partner votes?

A decent open minded person will judge people on their character, not on how they happen to vote or any other identity they may hold. History is littered with people who have been discriminated against and worse for perfectly reasonable political opinions.

Like I said, I think you are a bigot, but your bigotry is acceptable to you, but that is the case with them all.

[Eric Cartman]

Not everyone who votes for a party sometimes as infrequently as once every five years holds the same fundamental outlook on life as every other of the millions of people who happen to do the same. Not all Labour voters are the same. Not all Lib Dems. Not all Tories. There will be uncaring people, selfish people, stupid people, kind, tolerant, intelligent people amongst them all. Some will be complete arseholes, but most are decent people who just happen to have a different opinion to you.

In the vast majority of cases, that view will be perfectly reasonable and it is YOUR opinion and judgement of them that is entirely distorted. They may vote Tory to lower unemployment or because they like the MP in question. Who are you to judge them for it, least of all cast shame on someone for loving someone merely because of how their partner votes?

A decent open minded person will judge people on their character, not on how they happen to vote or any other identity they may hold. History is littered with people who have been discriminated against and worse for perfectly reasonable political opinions.

Like I said, I think you are a bigot, but your bigotry is acceptable to you, but that is the case with them all.

So you would be fine with your kid marrying a white supremacist then? Or an extremist Islamic preacher? You would rather your kid married a bigot than be accused of being one yourself?

[jon1959]

So you would be fine with your kid marrying a white supremacist then? Or an extremist Islamic preacher? You would rather your kid married a bigot than be accused of being one yourself?

You have got it Eric.

Intolerance of bigotry is bigotry in JamesWorld.

[JamesWales]

You have got it Eric.

Intolerance of bigotry is bigotry in JamesWorld.

If Eric and Jon think a White Supremacist or extremist islamic preacher are comparable to someone who happens to vote for the Labour or Tory party then you are many things as well as being a bigot.

For a start, in almost every circumstance the two things you cite are illegal, whereas little Jonny who loves your daughter but happens to vote Tory cos he thinks they will be better for the economy or something is not.

Such a preposterous example that rather proves my point really, so thanks for that

[Eric Cartman]

If Eric and Jon think a White Supremacist or extremist islamic preacher are comparable to someone who happens to vote for the Labour or Tory party then you are many things as well as being a bigot.

For a start, in almost every circumstance the two things you cite are illegal, whereas little Jonny who loves your daughter but happens to vote Tory cos he thinks they will be better for the economy or something is not.

Such a preposterous example that rather proves my point really, so thanks for that

In what circumstances is it illegal to be a white supremacist or to preach a more radical version of Islam in the UK? It might be illegal to join certain groups but I don't remember people being convicted for having a belief or opinion.

It is only a preposterous example to somebody who sees everything in black and white, right or wrong. It is a spectrum and we are just talking about where you draw the line, which is going to be personal preference.

Take Zouma for instance. Some people couldn't give a **** that he booted his cat across the floor, they can hold that view but I don't care what their reason is for thinking that, I won't be their friend. They can be friends with each other and laugh about abusing animals together.

I have a pal who tries his best to defend some of the terrible shit Boris has done, we just don't talk politics. My personal line is somewhere beyond that so he and I can still get on but something doesn't need to be illegal for me to disagree with it enough that I don't want to involve myself with people who agree with it.

[JamesWales]

In what circumstances is it illegal to be a white supremacist or to preach a more radical version of Islam in the UK? It might be illegal to join certain groups but I don't remember people being convicted for having a belief or opinion.

It is only a preposterous example to somebody who sees everything in black and white, right or wrong. It is a spectrum and we are just talking about where you draw the line, which is going to be personal preference.

Take Zouma for instance. Some people couldn't give a **** that he booted his cat across the floor, they can hold that view but I don't care what their reason is for thinking that, I won't be their friend. They can be friends with each other and laugh about abusing animals together.

I have a pal who tries his best to defend some of the terrible shit Boris has done, we just don't talk politics. My personal line is somewhere beyond that so he and I can still get on but something doesn't need to be illegal for me to disagree with it enough that I don't want to involve myself with people who agree with it.

Are you seriously continuing down this line of comparing white supremacy or radical islamic preaching to voting for the Tories or Labour? And you are accusing me of black and white thinking? That is the exact opposite of what I'm doing.

[Eric Cartman]

Are you seriously continuing down this line of comparing white supremacy or radical islamic preaching to voting for the Tories or Labour? And you are accusing me of black and white thinking? That is the exact opposite of what I'm doing.

Either you don't get it or you don't want to get it. I'll try one last time. I'm not comparing it, I am acknowledging that every view exists along a spectrum and different people will draw their line in different places.

It is black/white to suggest that the line is the same for everybody. For instance, somebody could well make the argument that Labour and the Tories have both changed significantly over the past few years and therefore so has their acceptance of people who share common values with each party.

This is painful to be honest James. I don't think you are an idiot so I have to assume you are deliberately misinterpreting what I am saying in order to feel as though you are 'winning'. If that is the case then crack on because it is completely pointless talking to you.

[JamesWales]

Either you don't get it or you don't want to get it. I'll try one last time. I'm not comparing it, I am acknowledging that every view exists along a spectrum and different people will draw their line in different places.

It is black/white to suggest that the line is the same for everybody. For instance, somebody could well make the argument that Labour and the Tories have both changed significantly over the past few years and therefore so has their acceptance of people who share common values with each party.

This is painful to be honest James. I don't think you are an idiot so I have to assume you are deliberately misinterpreting what I am saying in order to feel as though you are 'winning'. If that is the case then crack on because it is completely pointless talking to you.

You are crackers Eric. Someone on here saying it's legit to dislike people because of who they vote for I call them out on that, you then ramble on about god knows what.

Of course there are spectrums. Normal people think in spectrums and understand that. Bigots don't. They will use a binary determinant (race, ethnicity, religion, political party) and judge someone on that.

That you have to bring in white supremacy shows how weak the argument you are making is. I fully understand that people draw their line at different places. I get that, but if you draw the line that you would object to your son or daughter marrying a Tory or Labour voter then you are a bigot (and a fool) and bigotry isn't acceptable, end of. It's an arsehole thing to be.

[Eric Cartman]

You are crackers Eric. Someone on here saying it's legit to dislike people because of who they vote for I call them out on that, you then ramble on about god knows what.

Of course there are spectrums. Normal people think in spectrums and understand that. Bigots don't. They will use a binary determinant (race, ethnicity, religion, political party) and judge someone on that.

That you have to bring in white supremacy shows how weak the argument you are making is. I fully understand that people draw their line at different places. I get that, but if you draw the line that you would object to your son or daughter marrying a Tory or Labour voter then you are a bigot (and a fool) and bigotry isn't acceptable, end of. It's an arsehole thing to be.

That is how the world works unfortunately James. How many Jews marry Muslims? How many evangelical Christians marry atheists. Do you consider every religious person who deliberately chooses to marry within their faith a bigot? People divide along ideological lines. It isn't a massive shock to me that Britain has become this politically divided that political views are now as entrenched as religious views.

[JamesWales]

That is how the world works unfortunately James. How many Jews marry Muslims? How many evangelical Christians marry atheists. Do you consider every religious person who deliberately chooses to marry within their faith a bigot? People divide along ideological lines. It isn't a massive shock to me that Britain has become this politically divided that political views are now as entrenched as religious views.

Yes, I know. And it's not a good thing and when it creeps in it should be challenged and called out. There are lots of bad things in the world, that alas is a given. Doing nothing about them is a bad thing.

Britain becoming a more politically sectarian country comes with wholly negative consequences which is why we should push against it. Debate - yes. Disagree - yes. Say you would be upset if your son was in love with and married a Tory or Labour or Remain or Leave voter? No chance!

[the other bob wilson]

Looking at the definition of the word “Bigot” posted earlier in the thread, the Biblical term “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” springs to mind. Given the way I bang on about Johnson and his party on here, I’m a bigot based on that definition and, more than that, I’d say that the person who is accusing others of being one in this thread is one as well considering the way he, almost without fail, springs to the Government’s defence whenever they are criticised.

[JamesWales]

Looking at the definition of the word “Bigot” posted earlier in the thread, the Biblical term “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” springs to mind. Given the way I bang on about Johnson and his party on here, I’m a bigot based on that definition and, more than that, I’d say that the person who is accusing others of being one in this thread is one as well considering the way he, almost without fail, springs to the Government’s defence whenever they are criticised.

Yeah I don't think sometimes defending the government in a debate if I think someone has posted something that is wrong or I disagree with is quite the same as hating on someone for how they happen to vote in elections tbf.

That is a good bible quote though.

[Eric Cartman]

Yeah I don't think sometimes defending the government in a debate if I think someone has posted something that is wrong or I disagree with is quite the same as hating on someone for how they [B]happen[\b] to vote in elections tbf.

That is a good bible quote though.

Maybe that is one of the issues here, people attach very different levels of importance to politics. For some people it is life or death, for others it is basically just ticking a box every few years depending on how they feel that day.

[life on mars]

Maybe that is one of the issues here, people attach very different levels of importance to politics. For some people it is life or death, for others it is basically just ticking a box every few years depending on how they feel that day.

Think it also becomes very personal for them , due to their particular circumstances, and we should all consider and respect that I guess

[JamesWales]

Maybe that is one of the issues here, people attach very different levels of importance to politics. For some people it is life or death, for others it is basically just ticking a box every few years depending on how they feel that day.

Of course, and that goes without saying. Although the same goes for religion. That doesn't make judging or discriminating against someone on that basis acceptable, positive or progressive or a nice thing to do.

I love politics, but I respect all opinions and don't judge someones character on how they happen to vote - that's not right or fair.

[the other bob wilson]

Yeah I don't think sometimes defending the government in a debate if I think someone has posted something that is wrong or I disagree with is quite the same as hating on someone for how they happen to vote in elections tbf.

That is a good bible quote though.

If I think that definition describes me to an extent, I’m not sure why you should think it doesn’t describe yourself .By that definition, anyone who argues from a preset ideological or political position could be called a bigot - as in so many things, it’s a question of degree, I’d never considered myself, or you, a bigot before and, in truth, I don’t now, but that definition does sound a bit like me.

[delmbox]

Of course, and that goes without saying. Although the same goes for religion. That doesn't make judging or discriminating against someone on that basis acceptable, positive or progressive or a nice thing to do.

I love politics, but I respect all opinions and don't judge someones character on how they happen to vote - that's not right or fair.

I think this is what Eric was getting at with his black and white comment though, if you just say "I respect all opinions" you by definition respect the opinion of a white supremacist no? Or talking in political terms, say the BNP? And in your view if someone doesn't, or dislikes someone purely for their membership of the BNP does that make them a bigot?

[JamesWales]

I think this is what Eric was getting at with his black and white comment though, if you just say "I respect all opinions" you by definition respect the opinion of a white supremacist no? Or talking in political terms, say the BNP? And in your view if someone doesn't, or dislikes someone purely for their membership of the BNP does that make them a bigot?

Yes, I understand that wider point, but we weren't talking about the BNP or white supremacists though. We were talking about a survey that referred to Labour, Tories, Remain and Leave voters, so that was a strawman argument.

The BNP and white supremacists DO discriminate based on peoples characteristics. To oppose that is fair enough (although I still wouldnt go so far as claiming every element of that person is bad) but that isn't the case with the parties or positions being discussed here.

Of course, some will seek to demonise views, as others seek to demonise religions, which is a part of the whole thought process of having bigoted opinions. But that doesn't make it so. If I don't want my son to marry a muslim because she's a muslim, I may well think it, but that doesn't make my opinion right, fair, just, moderate.

My point is that people who do judge on whether someone votes Labour, Tory, Leave, Remain etc are wrong to do so, and that they should be more open minded in their approach. I'm not saying it's as bad as other forms of bigotry but it's cut from the same cloth (in my opinion) and is a cause of just as much discord and hatred in the world as other forms of discrimination

They are free to disagree, but I think in the instances discussed it absolutely counts as bigotry.

And yeah, maybe people should moderate their language a little on all this. That more than anything is the point I am making, and will always make.

[Eric Cartman]

Yes, I understand that wider point, but we weren't talking about the BNP or white supremacists though. We were talking about a survey that referred to Labour, Tories, Remain and Leave voters, so that was a strawman argument.

The BNP and white supremacists DO discriminate based on peoples characteristics. To oppose that is fair enough (although I still wouldnt go so far as claiming every element of that person is bad) but that isn't the case with the parties or positions being discussed here.

Of course, some will seek to demonise views, as others seek to demonise religions, which is a part of the whole thought process of having bigoted opinions. But that doesn't make it so. If I don't want my son to marry a muslim because she's a muslim, I may well think it, but that doesn't make my opinion right, fair, just, moderate.

My point is that people who do judge on whether someone votes Labour, Tory, Leave, Remain etc are wrong to do so, and that they should be more open minded in their approach. I'm not saying it's as bad as other forms of bigotry but it's cut from the same cloth (in my opinion) and is a cause of just as much discord and hatred in the world as other forms of discrimination

They are free to disagree, but I think in the instances discussed it absolutely counts as bigotry.

And yeah, maybe people should moderate their language a little on all this. That more than anything is the point I am making, and will always make.

It isn't a straw man at all, I was trying to tease out exactly what delmbox says above. Essentially, do I need to be tolerant of every view along the spectrum to not be a bigot in your eyes or are you only referring to non-acceptance of those with 'moderate' views.

[HiVis]

What? I don’t understand what your getting at. The only person I can remember posting “kill the Tories” is that poster called native hipster or something like that - a look at his posting history will tell you it is very unlikely that he’s being serious in saying that.

My post is quite clear - when someone posts "kill the tories", you believe they don't really mean it. I agree.

I do wonder if you extend a similar courtesy to those who post similar comments aimed at other groups.

[HiVis]

Eric
Do you think it's normal behaviour to ostracise family member based on who they support / the music they listen to / the party they vote for?

James
What would it take for you to accept Eric's view is as valid as your own ?

[the other bob wilson]

My post is quite clear - when someone posts "kill the tories", you believe they don't really mean it. I agree.

I do wonder if you extend a similar courtesy to those who post similar comments aimed at other groups.

So you think I’d believe someone on here who said “kill the socialists”?

[Eric Cartman]

Eric
Do you think it's normal behaviour to ostracise family member based on who they support / the music they listen to / the party they vote for?

James
What would it take for you to accept Eric's view is as valid as your own ?

Me? I don't really have a view. It's probably quite normal but not likely to be a good thing.