How are Welsh taxpayers paying for an England rail project?

[HiVis]

ok so apologies I had assumed you meant the second Severn crossing and the Severn barrage as major infrastructure projects, but instead you were talking about the original Severn bridge and Cardiff bay barrage as examples of infrastructure spending by Westminster that benefits Wales.
that's 2 fairly small projects over the course of the last 60 years, the bridge funding was also repaid many times over by the bridge tolls, so that was effectively paid for by mostly the Welsh as well.
at any given time there are several multi billion pound infrastructure projects taking place in London at the same time. a little over 100m over the last 60 years is a piss in the ocean.

the Cardiff Bay Barrage cost over £120m. The point being is that Wales often benefits from UK wide projects that don't benefit other areas.

HS2 is going to cost say £100bn, so the Welsh equivalent would be £5bn over 20 years, or around £250m per annum. Given we already have around £16bn in fiscal transfers I'd say we're ahead of the game.

[Rjk]

the Cardiff Bay Barrage cost over £120m. The point being is that Wales often benefits from UK wide projects that don't benefit other areas.

HS2 is going to cost say £100bn, so the Welsh equivalent would be £5bn over 20 years, or around £250m per annum. Given we already have around £16bn in fiscal transfers I'd say we're ahead of the game.

£250m per annum is a significant fraction of Wales' available infrastructure funds, that would make a big difference to us.

as explained before the "fiscal transfers" you mention is almost entirely structural spending like pensions, healthcare and social security - this type of spending will never improve Wales' lot, it is required because Wales has seen less development than England, to use that as a reason not to invest fairly here is just bullshit

[life on mars]

How dare the UK government award over £200m to 11 different Welsh projects, just a couple of months ago from the levelling up fund.
It includes £50m towards the Cardiff Crossrail project.
You'd better let those English taxpayers know.

Perhaps they felt sorry fas they watched the Welsh Government waste millions on Cardiff Airport and other vanity projects .

You only have to walk out of the central station and look at the thounsands spent on what should self generate wealth in Wales .. if the units were occupied and not working from home . The project would be a wonderful success for jobs , tax takes , if it had folk there buying from local hospitality units , folk spending on rail travel . That's called growth ..

I walked out into the square fir a meeting yesterday at 11am, there was 11 people , kids , few beggers and a vast emptiness all driven by poor governance..




From.DT .

The money to keep Cardiff Airport afloat does not just come from Welsh taxpayers. In 2021, Wales received a record £18bn from Westminster. That meant people living in Wales received £120 for every £100 per person of equivalent UK Government spending in England.

Develoution is a failed project in NI, , Scotland and Wales its just created insular nasty politics, they are run by second class politicians deciding on non important issues ,wasting funds and opportunities, the vanity projects are obviously based on a favourable agenda for thier electorate.

I note Mark has not mentioned that key policy called gendre recognition for a while ... ??

Let's not forget the Welsh Government has its own tax rising governance including Business Rates , so.yes we could become a sucess with some brave decesions and not rely on jobs from the public sector with Westminster blessing , that are slowly being eroded .. something they are fully aware of ...

It's worth remembering that DVLA.Comp Hse ,ONS , Patent Office and many more HQ's are gifted to us .

[HiVis]

£250m per annum is a significant fraction of Wales' available infrastructure funds, that would make a big difference to us.

as explained before the "fiscal transfers" you mention is almost entirely structural spending like pensions, healthcare and social security - this type of spending will never improve Wales' lot, it is required because Wales has seen less development than England, to use that as a reason not to invest fairly here is just bullshit

what the fiscal transfers are spent on is irrelevant, it is still money generated in London, the East and South East that we benefit from. If Wales were to become independent, where would the extra £16bn that is required that pays for pensions, health, education come from? You can't say borrowing because the Welsh economy is only £75bn, our share on the national debt must be £150bn, meaning we'd be paying upwards of £10bn or so per annum in interest on the old debt....

[JamesWales]

what the fiscal transfers are spent on is irrelevant, it is still money generated in London, the East and South East that we benefit from. If Wales were to become independent, where would the extra £16bn that is required that pays for pensions, health, education come from? You can't say borrowing because the Welsh economy is only £75bn, our share on the national debt must be £150bn, meaning we'd be paying upwards of £10bn or so per annum in interest on the old debt....

This is why I've always argued that whilst
Independence may work in the long run (or may not), there would undoubtedly be an enormous short term cost, way way in excess of the kind of disruption that any political change (such as Brexit) can cause.

I can't see how we would face anything other than severe austerity. And who would lend the Welsh Govt money to plug the gap?

In time the economy would align and we would certainly become a net exporter of power, water and the like and no doubt specialise elsewhere, but for many years I think it would be difficult.

Maybe that's worth it if you identify as a Welsh nationalist, but I don't so I need far more convincing.

[HiVis]

This is why I've always argued that whilst
Independence may work in the long run (or may not), there would undoubtedly be an enormous short term cost, way way in excess of the kind of disruption that any political change (such as Brexit) can cause.

I can't see how we would face anything other than severe austerity. And who would lend the Welsh Govt money to plug the gap?

In time the economy would align and we would certainly become a net exporter of power, water and the like and no doubt specialise elsewhere, but for many years I think it would be difficult.

Maybe that's worth it if you identify as a Welsh nationalist, but I don't so I need far more convincing.

Who are we exporting power and water to?

[Rjk]

what the fiscal transfers are spent on is irrelevant, it is still money generated in London, the East and South East that we benefit from. If Wales were to become independent, where would the extra £16bn that is required that pays for pensions, health, education come from? You can't say borrowing because the Welsh economy is only £75bn, our share on the national debt must be £150bn, meaning we'd be paying upwards of £10bn or so per annum in interest on the old debt....

of course it's not irrelevant.
fiscal transfers for things like pensions and social security are higher here BECAUSE spending on infrastructure has always been a lot lower.
to then say we shouldn't get any more infrastructure spending because of all that benefit money we already get is completely misunderstanding the issues.

[HiVis]

of course it's not irrelevant.
fiscal transfers for things like pensions and social security are higher here BECAUSE spending on infrastructure has always been a lot lower.
to then say we shouldn't get any more infrastructure spending because of all that benefit money we already get is completely misunderstanding the issues.

That's not what I said at all, you're putting words into my mouth.

I asked where the money is coming from for all this investment? The Welsh government baulked at the idea of (i) the M4 relief road and (ii) the Severn Barrage. That is with the £16-18bn fiscal transfer we currently receive. We have no chance of any kind of significant investment at all if we were independent as all of our tax receipts and borrowing would go on current expenditure rather than capital.

So explain to me like I'm 5 - where is the money coming from (you can use the current situation of Wales being in the union or assume we are independent, the choice is yours).

[Rjk]

That's not what I said at all, you're putting words into my mouth.

I asked where the money is coming from for all this investment? The Welsh government baulked at the idea of (i) the M4 relief road and (ii) the Severn Barrage. That is with the £16-18bn fiscal transfer we currently receive. We have no chance of any kind of significant investment at all if we were independent as all of our tax receipts and borrowing would go on current expenditure rather than capital.

So explain to me like I'm 5 - where is the money coming from (you can use the current situation of Wales being in the union or assume we are independent, the choice is yours).

so you're saying that Westminster can afford multiple billion pounds infrastructure projects in England, but it couldn't possibly afford to give Wales a fair share when it's going to blow 100bn on a new rail line for London and Birmingham.

[HiVis]

so you're saying that Westminster can afford multiple billion pounds infrastructure projects in England, but it couldn't possibly afford to give Wales a fair share when it's going to blow 100bn on a new rail line for London and Birmingham.

again you're putting words in my mouth. I've already said that there are UK wide projects that benefit Wales alone, you can't just look at the major projects, you have to look at all the spend.

Isn't Rail and Road a devolved issue? Why isn't your ire directed towards the useless twats in Cardiff Bay

[dembethewarrior]

so you're saying that Westminster can afford multiple billion pounds infrastructure projects in England, but it couldn't possibly afford to give Wales a fair share when it's going to blow 100bn on a new rail line for London and Birmingham.

Why can't you just explain to him like a 5 year old.

Why do people have to deflect so much on here, just to safe face? If you can't answer it just say you can't answer it, nobody really cares.