If Cardiff had had two football league sides, would football have become much bigger in the city?

[Eric the Half a Bee]

A while ago there was an interesting thread, even if it lacked comments, about how the history of Welsh football could have been different had there been a Welsh league that all Welsh teams competed in from the beginning.

Skip to Glasgow, and despite them playing each other at least 4 times a year, there seems to be no love lost between Celtic and Rangers. Indeed, the interest and desire to win is as strong as it has probably ever been and shows no sign of diminishing.

In the thread I mentioned, someone brought up what might happen had we had two football league teams in Cardiff. While we'd probably have been the smallest city to have had this, it probably wouldn't have been beyond the realms of possibility.

So, how would it have worked out? Cardiff City vs Cardiff xx? North vs south? West vs East? Would that rivalry have spurred on both sides and made Cardiff more of a football city? Would they have detracted from each other and resulted in two crap sides? Who knows, but it's an interesting hypothetical question.

[WJ99mobile]

It hasn’t worked for Bristol?

[Tuerto]

It hasn’t worked for Bristol?

Although Bristol is isolated almost as much as we are.

[Tuerto]

I think that if there were other medium sized league clubs in close proximity, a cluster of clubs like the midland, lancashire, yorkshire, london etc, then i do think that football would be more intense in south wales. It's sleepy here, we don't have the day to day rivalries, the intense coverage, the competition. I'm sure that reasoning can be countered quite easily, but i do believe that a more intense region in terms of football teams to support would make for a better capital city football club. It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of those people who live in such areas.

[jon1959]

I think that if there were other medium sized league clubs in close proximity, a cluster of clubs like the midland, lancashire, yorkshire, london etc, then i do think that football would be more intense in south wales. It's sleepy here, we don't have the day to day rivalries, the intense coverage, the competition. I'm sure that reasoning can be countered quite easily, but i do believe that a more intense region in terms of football teams to support would make for a better capital city football club. It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of those people who live in such areas.

In Sheffield there is rivalry between United and Wednesday - but it is for the most part fairly low key. The frothing fanatics mainly live in the 'below the line' comments section on the Sheffield Star website. So about half a dozen old gits throwing illiterate abiuse at each other from the safety of their keyboards. The two clubs co-exist comfortably - and trouble is rare.

However both detest Leeds. Not that you have to live in Yorkshire to hate Leeds. I have even heard that some Welsh folk share that viewpoint - and how right they are!

It has helped in recent years that Barnsley, Rotherham, Doncaster and even Chesterfield have been local league rivals - and that Boro, Hull, Bradford, Derby, Forest and the Lancashire clubs are close. Neither Rugby League nor Union are big - although there are local lower tier clubs for both - nor is Ice Hockey. And Sheffield thinks of itself (with reason) as the home of football.

So it is more a football culture than the strength of local rivalry that creates the intensity.

[Tuerto]

In Sheffield there is rivalry between United and Wednesday - but it is for the most part fairly low key. The frothing fanatics mainly live in the 'below the line' comments section on the Sheffield Star website. So about half a dozen old gits throwing illiterate abiuse at each other from the safety of their keyboards. The two clubs co-exist comfortably - and trouble is rare.

However both detest Leeds. Not that you have to live in Yorkshire to hate Leeds. I have even heard that some Welsh folk share that viewpoint - and how right they are!

It has helped in recent years that Barnsley, Rotherham, Doncaster and even Chesterfield have been local league rivals - and that Boro, Hull, Bradford, Derby, Forest and the Lancashire clubs are close. Neither Rugby League nor Union are big - although there are local lower tier clubs for both - nor is Ice Hockey. And Sheffield thinks of itself (with reason) as the home of football.

So it is more a football culture than the strength of local rivalry that creates the intensity.

That's great Jon, yup, it's a culture, that's missing in South Wales in my opinion, same could probably be aid of Bristol as well. We lose, there's not that much at stake in terms of parochial rivalries, there isn't really anyone or anywhere that as fans, we have to avoid for a couple of days, it doesn't really touch us if we lose to the jacks.

[Jordi Culé]

A while ago there was an interesting thread, even if it lacked comments, about how the history of Welsh football could have been different had there been a Welsh league that all Welsh teams competed in from the beginning.

Skip to Glasgow, and despite them playing each other at least 4 times a year, there seems to be no love lost between Celtic and Rangers. Indeed, the interest and desire to win is as strong as it has probably ever been and shows no sign of diminishing.

In the thread I mentioned, someone brought up what might happen had we had two football league teams in Cardiff. While we'd probably have been the smallest city to have had this, it probably wouldn't have been beyond the realms of possibility.

So, how would it have worked out? Cardiff City vs Cardiff xx? North vs south? West vs East? Would that rivalry have spurred on both sides and made Cardiff more of a football city? Would they have detracted from each other and resulted in two crap sides? Who knows, but it's an interesting hypothetical question.

Using a Scottish city is an interesting example as I’d say there would be no similarity with Glasgow but Cardiff would’ve ended up more like Dundee.

[Former Labour leader]

Using a Scottish city is an interesting example as I’d say there would be no similarity with Glasgow but Cardiff would’ve ended up more like Dundee.

Interesting that you mention Dundee.
A number of years ago I ended up in Dundee hospital overnight.
It was easy for me to turn the conversation from my problem to football. I was fascinated and amazed by the interest and knowledge in football by seemingly all the staff, male and female.
Would never have got that in the Heath or Prince Philip hospitals.
There was definitely a strong football culture in 2 football teams Dundee that you don't see in S Wales. Did the fact that there are 2 teams make a difference?

[splott parker]

Although in lower leagues now, for years and years there was the the two clubs from Falkirk, East Stirlingshire being the local rivals to Falkirk.

[insider]

In my opinion with football in South Wales you always have to factor rugby into the equation more so than any other part of the UK.
It's more a mentality bred by the media in that you are Welsh then you love rugby.
It always seemed to me that our football club was a pariah on the city and if you ventured into town with a kit on you weren't wanted.
I think those attitudes have changed now and places just want business.
Factor in another league football club is a strange question would the passion for football be greater maybe so but as a large part of our support crosses with them down west then those close rivalries exist now.

[A Quiet Monkfish]

Drive across the M62 or around the M63 and it's like reading the results in the Sunday paper. Interestingly, in the years after the Great War south Wales was a football hotbed. Clubs like Barry, Pontypridd, Llanelly, Ton Pentre, all applied to join the football league, Merthyr and Aberdare being successful. Economics ended that, though the presence of a strong Rugby Union culture especially driven from the middle/upper classes, helped establish that sport as culturally 'superior' in the media etc.

[NinianKnight]

In my opinion with football in South Wales you always have to factor rugby into the equation more so than any other part of the UK.
It's more a mentality bred by the media in that you are Welsh then you love rugby.
It always seemed to me that our football club was a pariah on the city and if you ventured into town with a kit on you weren't wanted.
I think those attitudes have changed now and places just want business.
Factor in another league football club is a strange question would the passion for football be greater maybe so but as a large part of our support crosses with them down west then those close rivalries exist now.

Spot on. City and Cardiff RFC/Blues have been rivals for attracting crowds for years. Most fans either support one or the other although there are odd cases of fans attending both

[the other bob wilson]

Interesting topic, but at the heart of it all, is, I feel, the near certainty that Cardiff is not enough of a football city to sustain two league clubs. It's big enough to if you look at the example of Stoke which has had two league clubs for decades despite having a population of around 270,000. Stoke and Port Vale could, conceivably be playing each other in the third tier next season and I can remember some feisty derbies the teams in the 90s when Port Vale were doing well around thirty years ago - they don't play each other too often, but it appears there;s a healthy rivalry between Stoke's two teams.

It shouldn't be forgotten, but often is, that there's a EFL club on Cardiff's doorstep. If you Google the distance between Cardiff and Newport, I think the answer you get is 12 miles, but, in reality you only have to travel a mile or two before you move from the outskirts of one city into the outskirts of the other, yet, having experienced Cardiff v Newport league games in the 80s, it never had the feel of a derby in the way games with the jacks or the wurzels do except in the two games in 82/83 when both sides were challenging for promotion to the second tier.

My attitude towards Newport County hardly suggests the type of rivalry you get between teams from the same city either, I've seen stacks of County home games and have gone there to support them - the rivalry exists from the Newport side to some respect and among some City fans old enough to remember the games in the 80s, but I've always thought that there is mostly goodwill or indifference when it comes to the attiutde of City fans towards County.

It shouldn't be forgotten that there was a time when south Wales had five Football League teams and while the very harsh economic conditions of he 1920s and 30s played a big part in the demise of the clubs from Merthyr and Aberdare, was there ever a real chance of both towns sustaining league football if times had been less tough economically in south Wales a hundered years ago> While, I'd say that merthyr and Aberdare are unusual for the valleys in that they are both essentially football towns, could Merthyr attract the size of crowds Newport does if they were in the EFL now? The crowds they used to get when they were doing well in what is now called the National League around thirty years ago suggest that they might, but I think life would always be a struggle for them.

I see little to suggest that Cardiff could sustain two EFL clubs that attracted big enough gates to make the notion that they could, for example, both stay in the Chjampionship for a long period viable.

[Cleve van Leef]

Interesting topic, but at the heart of it all, is, I feel, the near certainty that Cardiff is not enough of a football city to sustain two league clubs. It's big enough to if you look at the example of Stoke which has had two league clubs for decades despite having a population of around 270,000. Stoke and Port Vale could, conceivably be playing each other in the third tier next season and I can remember some feisty derbies the teams in the 90s when Port Vale were doing well around thirty years ago - they don't play each other too often, but it appears there;s a healthy rivalry between Stoke's two teams.

It shouldn't be forgotten, but often is, that there's a EFL club on Cardiff's doorstep. If you Google the distance between Cardiff and Newport, I think the answer you get is 12 miles, but, in reality you only have to travel a mile or two before you move from the outskirts of one city into the outskirts of the other, yet, having experienced Cardiff v Newport league games in the 80s, it never had the feel of a derby in the way games with the jacks or the wurzels do except in the two games in 82/83 when both sides were challenging for promotion to the second tier.

My attitude towards Newport County hardly suggests the type of rivalry you get between teams from the same city either, I've seen stacks of County home games and have gone there to support them - the rivalry exists from the Newport side to some respect and among some City fans old enough to remember the games in the 80s, but I've always thought that there is mostly goodwill or indifference when it comes to the attiutde of City fans towards County.

It shouldn't be forgotten that there was a time when south Wales had five Football League teams and while the very harsh economic conditions of he 1920s and 30s played a big part in the demise of the clubs from Merthyr and Aberdare, was there ever a real chance of both towns sustaining league football if times had been less tough economically in south Wales a hundered years ago> While, I'd say that merthyr and Aberdare are unusual for the valleys in that they are both essentially football towns, could Merthyr attract the size of crowds Newport does if they were in the EFL now? The crowds they used to get when they were doing well in what is now called the National League around thirty years ago suggest that they might, but I think life would always be a struggle for them.

I see little to suggest that Cardiff could sustain two EFL clubs that attracted big enough gates to make the notion that they could, for example, both stay in the Chjampionship for a long period viable.

Wasn’t there talk some years ago of merging Newport and Cardiff?

[the other bob wilson]

Wasn’t there talk some years ago of merging Newport and Cardiff?

I can’t remember that, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

[Rjk]

Wasn’t there talk some years ago of merging Newport and Cardiff?

do you mean the football clubs, or the cities?

[Cleve van Leef]

do you mean the football clubs, or the cities?

Cities

[Rjk]

Cities

bring it on. I think the first step is to officially absorb penarth.
then Newport, Caerphilly, Barry and llantrisant will fall in the second wave.

[NinianKnight]

Interesting topic, but at the heart of it all, is, I feel, the near certainty that Cardiff is not enough of a football city to sustain two league clubs. It's big enough to if you look at the example of Stoke which has had two league clubs for decades despite having a population of around 270,000. Stoke and Port Vale could, conceivably be playing each other in the third tier next season and I can remember some feisty derbies the teams in the 90s when Port Vale were doing well around thirty years ago - they don't play each other too often, but it appears there;s a healthy rivalry between Stoke's two teams.

It shouldn't be forgotten, but often is, that there's a EFL club on Cardiff's doorstep. If you Google the distance between Cardiff and Newport, I think the answer you get is 12 miles, but, in reality you only have to travel a mile or two before you move from the outskirts of one city into the outskirts of the other, yet, having experienced Cardiff v Newport league games in the 80s, it never had the feel of a derby in the way games with the jacks or the wurzels do except in the two games in 82/83 when both sides were challenging for promotion to the second tier.

My attitude towards Newport County hardly suggests the type of rivalry you get between teams from the same city either, I've seen stacks of County home games and have gone there to support them - the rivalry exists from the Newport side to some respect and among some City fans old enough to remember the games in the 80s, but I've always thought that there is mostly goodwill or indifference when it comes to the attiutde of City fans towards County.

It shouldn't be forgotten that there was a time when south Wales had five Football League teams and while the very harsh economic conditions of he 1920s and 30s played a big part in the demise of the clubs from Merthyr and Aberdare, was there ever a real chance of both towns sustaining league football if times had been less tough economically in south Wales a hundered years ago> While, I'd say that merthyr and Aberdare are unusual for the valleys in that they are both essentially football towns, could Merthyr attract the size of crowds Newport does if they were in the EFL now? The crowds they used to get when they were doing well in what is now called the National League around thirty years ago suggest that they might, but I think life would always be a struggle for them.

I see little to suggest that Cardiff could sustain two EFL clubs that attracted big enough gates to make the notion that they could, for example, both stay in the Chjampionship for a long period viable.

Going slightly off Newport had two teams until the 60's

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovell%27s_Athletic_F.C.

[Crisp White Lines]

Oxford and Cambridge are comparable cities, I reckon.

Both have a 'United' and a 'City' team.

Neither city (nor 'City') has achieved much success in football terms.

[fugsyphil]

Drive across the M62 or around the M63 and it's like reading the results in the Sunday paper. Interestingly, in the years after the Great War south Wales was a football hotbed. Clubs like Barry, Pontypridd, Llanelly, Ton Pentre, all applied to join the football league, Merthyr and Aberdare being successful. Economics ended that, though the presence of a strong Rugby Union culture especially driven from the middle/upper classes, helped establish that sport as culturally 'superior' in the media etc.

The M63!!! There's a blast from there past was renamed in 1998

[JamesWales]

I know this is about football league clubs but it is worth noting that Cardiff is in effect a two-club city. Our two recent seasons in the Prem meant we joined Berlin and Derry-Londonderry in having two top flight teams in two different countries at the same time. (Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there are other examples of that and it's a fine quiz question!)

Of course, Cardiff Met aren't really in any way comparable to Port Vale or Notts County or Bristol Rovers or other second teams in cities, and it's not a great experience watching them in Cyncoed, but they also shouldn't be totally overlooked - it's bought European football to Cardiff after all.

As for what would have happened, I suspect Bradford may offer the best example. I can't see the city supporting two league sides, I think one would have failed. Maybe a Stoke/Port Vale situation but that seems optimistic too.

As an aside I think it's a shame there isnt an established non league team in Cardiff. My mind has from time to time pictured a team playing in Maindy stadium with a bit of an alternative fan base who don't like the corporate nature of modern professional football. I guess Merthyr fill that role a bit but it's in no way in Cardiff.

[Rontomuk]

One of the key reasons why rugby has traditionally held an advantage over football in Cardiff—and across Wales—is the widespread presence of rugby clubhouses in and around the city. Historically, when pubs were closed on Sundays, many people became members of rugby clubs simply to access a place where they could have a drink and socialize. This gave rugby a distinct community advantage, fostering deep-rooted local connections and a culture that sustained the sport’s dominance.

Football, in contrast, did not have the same infrastructure of social spaces. Without clubhouses of their own, football clubs were unable to provide the same sense of belonging and communal gathering that rugby clubs offered. As a result, rugby maintained a stronger grip on Welsh sporting identity, particularly in Cardiff.

As for whether Cardiff could sustain two competitive football teams, the answer is complex. Cities like Bristol and Oxford have managed it, but their footballing landscapes are different. Cardiff City has long been the dominant club, and the city has never had a second team of comparable stature. While Cardiff has the population to support another club, there are several barriers:

[uncle bob]

Cardiff Dorothy's FC v Cardiff Tony's Fc

[NYCBlue]

Cardiff was small, provincial city until fairly recently. I think two clubs would have evolved into two League 2 or lower teams. I think what's been our undoing was the lack of ambition and success for sustained periods.