Welsh people culturally

[jon1959]

There's none so patriotic as someone who has always lived away from their perceived roots

Surely not. I'm sure that you are as genuine as all those who take part in New York's St Patrick Day's Parade

P.S. Should we really be proud of our roots when we had no say in what happened in history? And, equally, should young Germans, for example, have any shame regarding the actions of their forefathers as it's the other half of the same coin.......

This might be an interesting discussion if it stays on the subject that Wozza began.

I have never described myself as patriotic. That to me implies 'false pride' and 'my country right or wrong'. Samuel Johnson's line 'patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel' is still true today - although he used that as a put down of Pitt's misuse of 'patriotism' for political purposes.

A sense of identity or of roots does not require pride or patriotism. As I said above I feel both pride and shame at different parts of Welsh history - but mainly connection. Whether we had a say or not in what made our nation seems to be missing the point. Identity is not all about personal achievement - it is a messy and often irrational and confused set of emotional ties. I don't see the point in over-analysing that.

Also I'm not convinced that New York Irish and Sheffield Welsh have the same experience. One is about people who have mainly never set foot in Ireland, distance, disconnect, 'Old Country' tales, plastic shamrocks, franchise Guinness and a background of Tammany Hall and the NYPD (similar in Boston). The other is about a short drive to the border, watching my team at away grounds close to my home and walking the streets of Cardiff up to a dozen times a year!

And our bucket hats are better!

[Taunton Blue Genie]

This might be an interesting discussion if it stays on the subject that Wozza began.

I have never described myself as patriotic. That to me implies 'false pride' and 'my country right or wrong'. Samuel Johnson's line 'patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel' is still true today - although he used that as a put down of Pitt's misuse of 'patriotism' for political purposes.

A sense of identity or of roots does not require pride or patriotism. As I said above I feel both pride and shame at different parts of Welsh history - but mainly connection. Whether we had a say or not in what made our nation seems to be missing the point. Identity is not all about personal achievement - it is a messy and often irrational and confused set of emotional ties. I don't see the point in over-analysing that.

Also I'm not convinced that New York Irish and Sheffield Welsh have the same experience. One is about people who have mainly never set foot in Ireland, distance, disconnect, 'Old Country' tales, plastic shamrocks, franchise Guinness and a background of Tammany Hall and the NYPD (similar in Boston). The other is about a short drive to the border, watching my team at away grounds close to my home and walking the streets of Cardiff up to a dozen times a year!

And our bucket hats are better!

By the way, I have a friend whose first language is Welsh, she teaches Ethnography in a Welsh university and wears a daffodil hat to rugby games. She would be described as rather faux Welsh by a certain individual* on here without knowing her background.

*Not you, of course!

By the way, I think you have no equal on here regarding your contributions and knowledge!

[JamesWales]

This might be an interesting discussion if it stays on the subject that Wozza began.

I have never described myself as patriotic. That to me implies 'false pride' and 'my country right or wrong'. Samuel Johnson's line 'patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel' is still true today - although he used that as a put down of Pitt's misuse of 'patriotism' for political purposes.

A sense of identity or of roots does not require pride or patriotism. As I said above I feel both pride and shame at different parts of Welsh history - but mainly connection. Whether we had a say or not in what made our nation seems to be missing the point. Identity is not all about personal achievement - it is a messy and often irrational and confused set of emotional ties. I don't see the point in over-analysing that.

Also I'm not convinced that New York Irish and Sheffield Welsh have the same experience. One is about people who have mainly never set foot in Ireland, distance, disconnect, 'Old Country' tales, plastic shamrocks, franchise Guinness and a background of Tammany Hall and the NYPD (similar in Boston). The other is about a short drive to the border, watching my team at away grounds close to my home and walking the streets of Cardiff up to a dozen times a year!

And our bucket hats are better!

Agree with a lot of this but why do you interpret it as a "false pride" ?

Patriotism is just the word for love of ones country, no? I view it as such, in much the same way as one can love their family or city or community etc. it doesn't mean refusing to accept their many flaws.

I'm not sure if I'm patriotic. I want the best for my country but feel quite sad for it too and feel we have less and less holding us all together. I actually feel quite lost identity wise tbh. Even Cardiff City is lessened since the rebrand.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

By the way, I have a friend whose first language is Welsh, she teaches Ethnography in a Welsh university and wears a daffodil hat to rugby games. She would be described as rather faux Welsh by a certain individual* on here without knowing her background.

*Not you, of course!

By the way, I think you have no equal on here regarding your contributions and knowledge!

Well that would be of course bollocks

If a person has Welsh as a first language, teaches ethnography at a Welsh university and wears a Welsh rugby daffodil or whatever then I would prefer she threw the daft hat away but she's clearly not a faux Taffy is she ?

But if she spent every Saturday during the football season ignoring Welsh teams to kiss the arse of English sides she would be exactly the sort of running with the horse and hounds type that deserves ridicule

It's really not difficult to rationalise even for a person who has an air of academic superiority like yourself

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Agree with a lot of this but why do you interpret it as a "false pride" ?

Patriotism is just the word for love of ones country, no? I view it as such, in much the same way as one can love their family or city or community etc. it doesn't mean refusing to accept their many flaws.

I'm not sure if I'm patriotic. I want the best for my country but feel quite sad for it too and feel we have less and less holding us all together. I actually feel quite lost identity wise tbh. Even Cardiff City is lessened since the rebrand.

I find it very difficult to have any sort of connection with a Welsh football fan at CCS wearing a Welsh bucket hat who then spends the rest of the week on a man united or Liverpool fc forum and his Facebook page is full of mo salah nonsense

And he's born and bred in Canton

It's this sort of cobblers that brings patriotism down to its knees

Wales is full of these types

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Well that would be of course bollocks

If a person has Welsh as a first language, teaches ethnography at a Welsh university and wears a Welsh rugby daffodil or whatever then I would prefer she threw the daft hat away but she's clearly not a faux Taffy is she ?

But if she spent every Saturday during the football season ignoring Welsh teams to kiss the arse of English sides she would be exactly the sort of running with the horse and hounds type that deserves ridicule

It's really not difficult to rationalise even for a person who has an air of academic superiority like yourself

Thanks for rationalising!

[jon1959]

Another factor is the extent to which national identity defines each person.

For some it is everything. For TBG it seems it barely registers. I think for most of us it is just one of several/many different factors that make up our sense of ourselves - of who we are.

In my mind it is like a venn diagram of all my tribal affiliations (some inherited, some adopted as a conscious decision). Wales and Cardiff and Cardiff City are big ones, but so are my politics, the city where I live, the music and books and films that have influenced me or that I love, and family and friends.... and possibly other factors too.

I am Welsh but I have more in common with people in Belgium or Argentina or India who share my views and have similar life experiences than with reactionaries and new robber barons who happen to be Welsh and watched the Morcambe and Wise Christmas Special at the same time I did. When we talk about 'we' and 'us' that is not defined by having the same passport cover. There are Welsh people who are not 'us' to me and many people in other parts of the world who are.

[Dorcus]

I was born in Wales so I am regionally Welsh but simultaneously I was born in the UK so my nationality is British. I am not bonded by the heart to either. Above those I am European, Homo Sapien and a resident of Earth. All of which, particularly the latter being far more important IMO. Nationality and Regionality are mere administrative constructs with this strange concept of patriotism simply a means to enlist conscripts to war with alternative administrations whose ideals may happen to be at odds with our local administration's objectives.

It would be incomprehensible and absurd if I as an avowed Socialist should align myself with Welsh, British, (placeholder) rich capitalists against the mutual struggles of fellow genuine Socialists from alternative regimes.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Another factor is the extent to which national identity defines each person.

For some it is everything. For TBG it seems it barely registers. I think for most of us it is just one of several/many different factors that make up our sense of ourselves - of who we are.

In my mind it is like a venn diagram of all my tribal affiliations (some inherited, some adopted as a conscious decision). Wales and Cardiff and Cardiff City are big ones, but so are my politics, the city where I live, the music and books and films that have influenced me or that I love, and family and friends.... and possibly other factors too.

I am Welsh but I have more in common with people in Belgium or Argentina or India who share my views and have similar life experiences than with reactionaries and new robber barons who happen to be Welsh and watched the Morcambe and Wise Christmas Special at the same time I did. When we talk about 'we' and 'us' that is not defined by having the same passport cover. There are Welsh people who are not 'us' to me and many people in other parts of the world who are.

It does actually register with me as I'm actually a halfway house, as it were. I was being a tad provocative as I do buy into some of the nationalistic side of it - whilst also seeing some of the illogical aspects

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Thanks for rationalising!

You are very welcome you pompous old fruit

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Another factor is the extent to which national identity defines each person.

For some it is everything. For TBG it seems it barely registers. I think for most of us it is just one of several/many different factors that make up our sense of ourselves - of who we are.

In my mind it is like a venn diagram of all my tribal affiliations (some inherited, some adopted as a conscious decision). Wales and Cardiff and Cardiff City are big ones, but so are my politics, the city where I live, the music and books and films that have influenced me or that I love, and family and friends.... and possibly other factors too.

I am Welsh but I have more in common with people in Belgium or Argentina or India who share my views and have similar life experiences than with reactionaries and new robber barons who happen to be Welsh and watched the Morcambe and Wise Christmas Special at the same time I did. When we talk about 'we' and 'us' that is not defined by having the same passport cover. There are Welsh people who are not 'us' to me and many people in other parts of the world who are.

Aye ��