30 Ventilators

[Feedback]

What like the NHS that have been running it from its inception?

just my opinion, but based on treatment I've received in Germany and France - involving the private sector doesn't have to be along the lines of the shambolic US system, and can work if it is administered properly under the maxim "free for all at point of use"

[Feedback]

Brevity be facked.
You think you're intellectual because you throw words into a sentence

aren't sentences made up of words?

[Eric Cartman]

stick your had in the sand all you like but many posters in this thread, before I entered the fray, were making the UK lack's of preparedness a political issue.

Germany has a much better healthcare system that the UK. That's because the Germans use a mix of private and public healthcare provision - almost all service delivery is by the private sector with funding either from the state or your private insurance. We could learn so much from the Germans on healthcare delivery, but too many are myopic and prefer political dogma over practicality and results.

I could say the same about you, your irrational distrust of anything public sector encourages you to ignore the elephant in the room which is that we have a critical per head under spend on healthcare when compared to similar countries (like Germany).

[Taunton Blue Genie]

From Wikipedia. It probably doesn't tell the whole story but interesting nevertheless.

1920px-Health_care_cost_rise.svg.jpg

[Feedback]

I could say the same about you, your irrational distrust of anything public sector encourages you to ignore the elephant in the room which is that we have a critical per head under spend on healthcare when compared to similar countries (like Germany).

I dont mistrust the public sector. I just dont think they are best placed to always provide the service we need. The truth is a good mix of public and private will deliver the best outcome

[Feedback]

From Wikipedia. It probably doesn't tell the whole story but interesting nevertheless.

1920px-Health_care_cost_rise.svg.jpg

Good graph - the US illustrates that throwing money at a problem doesn't always deliver outcomes

[Croesy Blue]

Good graph - the US illustrates that throwing money at a problem doesn't always deliver outcomes

Talk about moving the goal posts

Surely the US shows that a private system isn't always better.

[cyril evans awaydays]

I dont mistrust the public sector. I just dont think they are best placed to always provide the service we need. The truth is a good mix of public and private will deliver the best outcome

I have some sympathy with that view. The issue for me is that mix needs to be determined in a legal contract. Defining a contract in a way that best serves the objectives of its citizens particularly at times of crisis and gives the provider a reasonable profit is often beyond the gift of the participants. The better service providers will not exploit the contractual weaknesses but not all.

[insider]

aren't sentences made up of words?

Yes and they normally start with a capital letter.

[jon1959]

Good graph - the US illustrates that throwing money at a problem doesn't always deliver outcomes

It does if you are a grasping drug company racking up your profits on the back of pain and suffering!

[Eric Cartman]

I dont mistrust the public sector. I just dont think they are best placed to always provide the service we need. The truth is a good mix of public and private will deliver the best outcome

The UK has that doesn't it? Some people will always think there should be more private involvement and some less. What it measurably doesn't have is comparable spending with its statistical neighbours.

[Feedback]

Talk about moving the goal posts

Surely the US shows that a private system isn't always better.

I never said it was. The US healthcare system is not fit for purpose. If you re-read my posts you will find I say as much. Ive also said that we need a good blend of public and private collaboration.

[Feedback]

I have some sympathy with that view. The issue for me is that mix needs to be determined in a legal contract. Defining a contract in a way that best serves the objectives of its citizens particularly at times of crisis and gives the provider a reasonable profit is often beyond the gift of the participants. The better service providers will not exploit the contractual weaknesses but not all.

BUPA, as one example, doesn't make a profit, with any surplus going into better healthcare

[Feedback]

It does if you are a grasping drug company racking up your profits on the back of pain and suffering!

Agreed. The US system is a national disgrace. No one should face bankruptcy for being ill

[Feedback]

The UK has that doesn't it? Some people will always think there should be more private involvement and some less. What it measurably doesn't have is comparable spending with its statistical neighbours.

Around 80% of German healthcare delivery is private sector. Private sector doesn't always mean profit, such as BUPA.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

So what you're suggesting is that by and large the UK public prefer right and centre right newspapers rather than the alternative.

This backs up my point that the UK is predominantly right of centre

Are you really suggesting that people buy newspapers based on the newspaper's political leanings?

Look at it another way. Suppose the Mail, Express and Sun all developed more left wing tendencies and printed more about socialism. Not immediately, but say gradually over a long period. Would most of the regular readers of those papers stop buying them because they were no longer right wing, or would most of them continue reading the same papers but change their own political opinion in tune with the paper they read?

[Feedback]

Are you really suggesting that people buy newspapers based on the newspaper's political leanings?

Look at it another way. Suppose the Mail, Express and Sun all developed more left wing tendencies and printed more about socialism. Not immediately, but say gradually over a long period. Would most of the regular readers of those papers stop buying them because they were no longer right wing, or would most of them continue reading the same papers but change their own political opinion in tune with the paper they read?

I'm suggesting the UK is right of centre by looking at the amount of time we've had a Tory government compared to a Labour government, since Labour first came to power

[Eric the Half a Bee]

I'm suggesting the UK is right of centre by looking at the amount of time we've had a Tory government compared to a Labour government, since Labour first came to power

I don't agree that the UK has been right of centre for some time. As Labour lurched from left to right under Blair, its majority lessened. Since the last Labour government we've had 2 coalitions, one very flimsy Tory majority and now Boris. As I've already suggested the last election wasn't about left or right, it was Boris vs Corbyn and getting Brexit sorted. I've already suggested that lots of left wing policies are popular with the public. Corbyn wasn't.

[Rjk]

we've had this discussion before so in the interests of brevity I won't go over it again, save to say its more than just life expectancy that is a desirable outcome. its quality of life from cradle to grave, and the German (and French) system is better than ours. They have genuine market competition, we could do but as you've seen in this thread, dogma is preferred over outcomes.

They don't have anything like a perfect market competition, and there are many metrics that our system compares very well against yours, just not your own metric of "I went to the drs in Germany and it was great"

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

we've had this discussion before so in the interests of brevity I won't go over it again, save to say its more than just life expectancy that is a desirable outcome. its quality of life from cradle to grave, and the German (and French) system is better than ours. They have genuine market competition, we could do but as you've seen in this thread, dogma is preferred over outcomes.

Its Feedback , I knew his right wing tory ideology would return

Welcome

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

At this present time, I think the working class needs a government that promotes business and opportunity to succeed. Only with a strong economy can you have strong social justice.

Political parties differ on how to get there, and I think (Brexit aside), the Tories are probably the best bet for now

Course you do feedback , course you do

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Its Feedback , I knew his right wing tory ideology would return

Welcome

Not to mention his relentlessness. Good shout.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The sun has 4m readers. That alone is not enough to win any election.

Your suggestion that Sun voters arent capable of independent thought is as arrogant as it is staggering. Its paradigms such as yours that are an inherent part of the problem

Well the people I know who read the sun are thick as shit

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Well the people I know who read the sun are thick as shit

Quite right. That's why I read the Sport.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

but the NHS hasn't been run into the ground. That's dogma. If you're ill you will be seen, if you have an accident you will be taken care of. If you want a German style healthcare system where everyone has their own bed, their own room, waiting lists are unheard of and they have the newest equipment and hospitals, then two things need to happen. Firstly, we need more investment in UK healthcare and secondly, we need the state to remove itself from running healthcare, and leave it to the healthcare professionals.

Waiting times for accident and emergency and outpatient appointments are shocking in england and worse in wales

In england the tories have run down the NHS for ten years and in wales have given the NHS feck all to play with in the first place

Feedback , you are off your cake