Coronavirus update - NO MORE RESTRICTIONS

[the other bob wilson]

have a read of that thread. it should be an absolute scandal

The so called lives v money debate at the heart of the issue of how to tackle the virus was never that for significant portions of the membership of the Governing party in the UK - disgraceful.

[lisvaneblue]

1003 students in Newcastle Uni positive in past week.

619 at Northumbria Uni.

No doubt students are likely to spread it. With that in mind I get exasperated at the differential approaches of the Wales Government and feel that politics are being played out.

Llanelli, a hot spot with a population of 35,000, situated in Carmarthenshire total population 190,000. So Llanelli in lockdown, whilst the rest of the borough is in the clear, can travel freely, ( even through lockdown area as long as they don't stop) holiday abroad etc. Drakeford is from Carmarthen incidentally.

Bangor a university city with a population of 16,000 plus 10,000 students. Some wards have been put in lockdown. So much of the population can carry on as normal. Very selective lockdown just affecting small hotspots.

Cardiff and Vale population 500,000 plus 50,000 students and undergraduates. Total lockdown, huge impact on everyone. Within the area there must be many wards that have a low incidence of the virus and could be free of lockdown.

Who on earth is being allowed to make these decisions unchallenged when they impact on so many peoples lives and mental state

[Jordi Culé]

have a read of that thread. it should be an absolute scandal

It should be but along with other dubious contracts awarded for testing, appointments made to people with little expertise and piss poor achievement and management qualities I think most people are just blasé about incidents like this and sort of expect it from this current government.

It’s the most corrupt UK government in my lifetime and I’ll go as far to say as ever.

Covid19 is turning into a decent money spinner for Boris, Cummings and Gove’s butties. All paid for by us.

[lisvaneblue]

[QUOTE=Jordi Culé;5124604]It should be but along with other dubious contracts awarded for testing, appointments made to people with little expertise and piss poor achievement and management qualities I think most people are just blasé about incidents like this and sort of expect it from this current government.

It’s the most corrupt UK government in my lifetime and I’ll go as far to say as ever.

I think this is false news. I used to manage a lot of contracts in the good old days when I had to work for a living, so I looked up tenders on OJEC, the official journal, that lists pending tenders. I didn't search specifically for the Knowsley contract but there were over 500 UK tenders for clothing and PPE listed. So I believe the process of procurement is being done openly and on official EU lines

[surge]

https://www.ft.com/content/0143a8b8-...4-f152bb9df2d7

Lockdown sceptics v zero-Covid: who’s got it right?
Unsurprisingly, neither side has all the answers. For those, we should look to Germany

One of the replies to the tweet with the article said that Scotland has gone with stricter, quicker measures and has better track-and-trace yet still worse outcomes both economic and in deaths than Sweden. Another replied that Sweden's economy hasn't been saved, had shrank more drastically than its neighbours in the second quarter, while deaths are ten times higher than some neighbouring countries.

The best thing to have done would be not to cut services to the bone with several years of austerity, not get so distracted by brexit, extend transition period due to significantly difficult circumstances, make more the of time bought with lockdown earlier in the year to prepare for schools re-opening/colder months which we knew would put services under greater levels of stress and public would be fatigued...

Not sure what the best move is now. Vaccine is likely to be available before UK is ready to act like Germany.

[cyril evans awaydays]

[QUOTE=lisvaneblue;5124607]

It should be but along with other dubious contracts awarded for testing, appointments made to people with little expertise and piss poor achievement and management qualities I think most people are just blasé about incidents like this and sort of expect it from this current government.

It’s the most corrupt UK government in my lifetime and I’ll go as far to say as ever.

I think this is false news. I used to manage a lot of contracts in the good old days when I had to work for a living, so I looked up tenders on OJEC, the official journal, that lists pending tenders. I didn't search specifically for the Knowsley contract but there were over 500 UK tenders for clothing and PPE listed. So I believe the process of procurement is being done openly and on official EU lines

The key thing in your search is at what stage the details of the "tender" were published in the OJEU. In the case of the £122m contract awarded to PPP Medpro the first OJEU notification was after the contract was awarded.

It would appear that this was a direct award (ie no competitive tender) under negotiated procedure.

4) The Department for Health and Social Care (‘DHSC’) is satisfied the tests permitting use of the negotiated procedure without prior publication (Regulation 32(2)(c)) were met:

http://bidstats.uk/tenders/2020/W37/734724148

As you say there were hundreds of tenders for PPP in the OJEU from March. Many, from local councils and organisations such as the Scottish Government went through notification and tender procedures. This does not seem to be the case for the English Government Departments which were contracting first and putting notices of who they awarded it to in the OJEU later. Presumably to give some degree of cover in the event of legal challenge for their actions.

http://bidstats.uk/tenders/?q=ppe&ca...5-734724148-45

If you could point out the false news bits in the PPP Medpro story that would be really interesting.

[lisvaneblue]

[QUOTE=cyril evans awaydays;5124619]

The key thing in your search is at what stage the details of the "tender" were published in the OJEU. In the case of the £122m contract awarded to PPP Medpro the first OJEU notification was after the contract was awarded.

It would appear that this was a direct award (ie no competitive tender) under negotiated procedure.

4) The Department for Health and Social Care (‘DHSC’) is satisfied the tests permitting use of the negotiated procedure without prior publication (Regulation 32(2)(c)) were met:

http://bidstats.uk/tenders/2020/W37/734724148

As you say there were hundreds of tenders for PPP in the OJEU from March. Many, from local councils and organisations such as the Scottish Government went through notification and tender procedures. This does not seem to be the case for the English Government Departments which were contracting first and putting notices of who they awarded it to in the OJEU later. Presumably to give some degree of cover in the event of legal challenge for their actions.

http://bidstats.uk/tenders/?q=ppe&ca...5-734724148-45

If you could point out the false news bits in the PPP Medpro story that would be really interesting.

Negotiated procedures are legit. I remember getting called by the MOD for supply of specific medicines in the Falklands War. There were others they could supply but not in the volumes and time frames required. So it was all done and dusted very quickly.

This seems to be the same. The contract was for 25 million gowns, Florence Roby, according to the Twitter account, could supply 40,000 a month...500,000 a year approx, nowhere near what was required. The award was made by DOHSC, and in my dealings with them, which were many, they are rigorous and above board. Ppe Medpro must have offered guarantees regarding supply and quality

[cyril evans awaydays]

[QUOTE=lisvaneblue;5124630]

Negotiated procedures are legit. I remember getting called by the MOD for supply of specific medicines in the Falklands War. There were others they could supply but not in the volumes and time frames required. So it was all done and dusted very quickly.

This seems to be the same. The contract was for 25 million gowns, Florence Roby, according to the Twitter account, could supply 40,000 a month...500,000 a year approx, nowhere near what was required. The award was made by DOHSC, and in my dealings with them, which were many, they are rigorous and above board. Ppe Medpro must have offered guarantees regarding supply and quality

I don't think the issue is whether negotiated procedures are legal or not. They are catered for under EU Procurement Law. However in my experience of their use they usually go to companies with a proven track record of delivery given the urgent need when normal tendering is not considered appropriate.

In this instance it went to a start up company with no history of manufacture or sourcing.

The contract award notice states that the actual manufacturers were two Chinese companies

Wujiang Tutaike Textiles & Finishing Co., Ltd and Kunshan Jiehong Nonwoven Products Co. Ltd.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=h...8-08d264292891

PPP Medpro seem to magically materialised as intermediaries with ready made contacts in the Chinese manufacturing industry and was able to get a single supplier tender as a result. Nice work if you can get it and nothing to see so we should all move on!

[Jordi Culé]

[QUOTE=lisvaneblue;5124607]

It should be but along with other dubious contracts awarded for testing, appointments made to people with little expertise and piss poor achievement and management qualities I think most people are just blasé about incidents like this and sort of expect it from this current government.

It’s the most corrupt UK government in my lifetime and I’ll go as far to say as ever.

I think this is false news. I used to manage a lot of contracts in the good old days when I had to work for a living, so I looked up tenders on OJEC, the official journal, that lists pending tenders. I didn't search specifically for the Knowsley contract but there were over 500 UK tenders for clothing and PPE listed. So I believe the process of procurement is being done openly and on official EU lines

Hmmm...

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rency-pandemic

It seems getting rid of wasteful Civil Service bureaucracy means speeding up giving public monies away to their mates.

I'm obviously a layman in regards to procurement.

[life on mars]

at least the deaths figure still seems to be remaining low.
the big problem seems to be when it starts to proliferate in hospital wards and elderly care homes. and they seem to be doing a better job of protecting them this time around

Let's hope that's a positive , perhaps we are seeing herd immunity evolving ,could a virus mutate slower of weaken , thankfully we are treating it a lot better , we do need some hope.

I see a report from Oxford University Centre for Evidence Based Medicine states :

The average age of Covid Death is 82.4 .

The Average age of non Covid death 81.5

[Rjk]

[QUOTE=lisvaneblue;5124630]

Negotiated procedures are legit. I remember getting called by the MOD for supply of specific medicines in the Falklands War. There were others they could supply but not in the volumes and time frames required. So it was all done and dusted very quickly.

This seems to be the same. The contract was for 25 million gowns, Florence Roby, according to the Twitter account, could supply 40,000 a month...500,000 a year approx, nowhere near what was required. The award was made by DOHSC, and in my dealings with them, which were many, they are rigorous and above board. Ppe Medpro must have offered guarantees regarding supply and quality

sorry but it does seem extremely suspect to me, and I think there should be an enquiry into all of these contracts.
I had so e exposure to the process for trying to obtain ventilators earlier in the year and that seemed pretty dodgy too.
the timing of this is extremely suspect.
if any of us were to try setting up a brand new company with no track record and win a huge contact within 7 weeks competing against existing suppliers for PPE then that would seem miraculous wouldn't it?

[cyril evans awaydays]

[QUOTE=Rjk;5124641]

sorry but it does seem extremely suspect to me, and I think there should be an enquiry into all of these contracts.
I had so e exposure to the process for trying to obtain ventilators earlier in the year and that seemed pretty dodgy too.
the timing of this is extremely suspect.
if any of us were to try setting up a brand new company with no track record and win a huge contact within 7 weeks competing against existing suppliers for PPE then that would seem miraculous wouldn't it?

It's obviously not a one-off but was a deliberate pattern. Very small companies with no track record in the sector suddenly being awarded multi-million pound contracts whilst traditional suppliers were being frozen out.

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/10/08/7...ackaging-firm/

https://www.cityam.com/government-fa...-control-firm/

What seems to be a common thread is these companies sourcing the PPE from China. It could be that this was the only realistic source for the bulk of the supplies required but direct contracting was politically unacceptable. Crikey there are people on here that won't buy a chinese takeaway in Cardiff because they blame "them" for the crisis who will no doubt be viewing this approach with utter horror.

What else is clear is that the intermediaries in these companies will have made massive profits for seemingly little effort. It will be interesting to see how Government met the intermediaries and how the intermediaries met the Chinese, some of which may come out if the National Audit Office is ever allowed to perform its statutory role.

[Jordi Culé]

[QUOTE=Rjk;5124641]

sorry but it does seem extremely suspect to me, and I think there should be an enquiry into all of these contracts.
I had so e exposure to the process for trying to obtain ventilators earlier in the year and that seemed pretty dodgy too.
the timing of this is extremely suspect.
if any of us were to try setting up a brand new company with no track record and win a huge contact within 7 weeks competing against existing suppliers for PPE then that would seem miraculous wouldn't it?

(Cough Cough) Ayanda Capital.

https://www.scotsman.com/health/ayan...-mills-2935155

Nothing to see here.

[lisvaneblue]

[QUOTE=Rjk;5124641]

sorry but it does seem extremely suspect to me, and I think there should be an enquiry into all of these contracts.
I had so e exposure to the process for trying to obtain ventilators earlier in the year and that seemed pretty dodgy too.
the timing of this is extremely suspect.
if any of us were to try setting up a brand new company with no track record and win a huge contact within 7 weeks competing against existing suppliers for PPE then that would seem miraculous wouldn't it?

Maybe we'd all be happier if the tender had been awarded to the other company, despite the fact they could supply 40,000 a month and we needed 25 million. But don't worry the doctors and nurses will manage!

What is more likely is that the Chinese manufacturers had product but no links to UK or knowledge of our procurement procedures. So, they look for an intermediary and Ppe Medpro is formed.
There is another company Medpro been around for about 10 years, maybe they are somehow linked, although Ppe Medpro could be a 'one off' for this contract alone?

These things go on and DoHSC needed a supplier urgently.

[Heisenberg]

Maybe we'd all be happier if the tender had been awarded to the other company, despite the fact they could supply 40,000 a month and we needed 25 million. But don't worry the doctors and nurses will manage!

What is more likely is that the Chinese manufacturers had product but no links to UK or knowledge of our procurement procedures. So, they look for an intermediary and Ppe Medpro is formed.
There is another company Medpro been around for about 10 years, maybe they are somehow linked, although Ppe Medpro could be a 'one off' for this contract alone?

These things go on and DoHSC needed a supplier urgently.

Is this the Medpro that you refer to? https://find-and-update.company-info...mpany/08498602

[lisvaneblue]

Is this the Medpro that you refer to? https://find-and-update.company-info...mpany/08498602

No, I was looking at Medpro Ltd. However, a search on Companies House web shows quite a few Medpro's. plus prefix or suffix.

None of the directors appear to be linked across the companies

[cyril evans awaydays]

No, I was looking at Medpro Ltd. However, a search on Companies House web shows quite a few Medpro's. plus prefix or suffix.

None of the directors appear to be linked across the companies

This is the company. Incorporated in May this year with no submitted accounts to date. Major shareholders are based in the Isle of Man where rather surprisingly for a PPE company their expertise isin off-shore wealth management and "multi-jurisdictional portfolio of structures on behalf of a number of high net worth individuals, families and corporate entities."

https://find-and-update.company-info...97000/officers

https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-...-ppe-contract/

https://knoxhousetrust.com/member/anthony-page/

Why wouldn't you award a £122m contract given all this?

[lisvaneblue]

This is the company. Incorporated in May this year with no submitted accounts to date. Major shareholders are based in the Isle of Man where rather surprisingly for a PPE company their expertise isin off-shore wealth management and "multi-jurisdictional portfolio of structures on behalf of a number of high net worth individuals, families and corporate entities."

https://find-and-update.company-info...97000/officers

https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-...-ppe-contract/

https://knoxhousetrust.com/member/anthony-page/

Why wouldn't you award a £122m contract given all this?

Well you wouldn't expect accounts to be submitted if they only incorporated in May. At the end of the day the contract is a supply contract, the dept of Health England awarded it and I trust from my past dealings with them that continue to be as rigorous with the adjudication. At the end of the day if PPE Medpro don't deliver they won't get paid.

This issue started on this board because an MP messaged on Twitter that a local company on his patch did not get a look in. I said false news because they could get nowhere near the volumes required and that is confirmed in the MPs Tweet.

[Heisenberg]

Well you wouldn't expect accounts to be submitted if they only incorporated in May. At the end of the day the contract is a supply contract, the dept of Health England awarded it and I trust from my past dealings with them that continue to be as rigorous with the adjudication. At the end of the day if PPE Medpro don't deliver they won't get paid.

This issue started on this board because an MP messaged on Twitter that a local company on his patch did not get a look in. I said false news because they could get nowhere near the volumes required and that is confirmed in the MPs Tweet.

Please forgive my ignorance as I can clearly see that this is something you're very knowledgeable about and I can only go off what is in the news...

But... Haven't there already been reports of millions (billions?) of pounds wasted on contracts given out by the Govt. during the pandemic for services/items that haven't been delivered?

[lisvaneblue]

Please forgive my ignorance as I can clearly see that this is something you're very knowledgeable about and I can only go off what is in the news...

But... Haven't there already been reports of millions (billions?) of pounds wasted on contracts given out by the Govt. during the pandemic for services/items that haven't been delivered?

You are right, there are a few I know about. One was a big contract for face masks and a very large number of them were not fit for use.....the masks were OK but the ear fastenings were not of a suitable standard for the NHS!!

Another contract for 'coveralls' has only been partly filled. The press claim this is a waste of tax payer money, but commercially I think the supplier would only get paid for the quantity supplied.

And....it could be that this new contract will go pair shaped, who knows? Trouble is in UK we don't have the manufacturing base to supply much of this stuff in the vast quantities needed. I hope we learn lessons and reduce our reliance on Chinese manufacture.

[xsnaggle]

Riddle me this.

Rhondda Cynon Taff is reported as having an infection raite of 177/100,000.
Abercynon test centre was doing about 1000 tests a day 2 weeks oe so ago, now they are doing 300. That is the limit put on them by the government.
Other test centres like Ebbw Vale have similar restrictions imposed.
The mobile Unit attached to Cardiff Test Centre has been paid for 8 weeks and has never left its base to carry out 1 single test. There are far fewer test being carried out now that 2 weeks ago. A new test centre set up in Pontypridd is hardly used and they are now setting one up in Museum Place in Cardiff on Wednesday.

So where is the government getting the figures that inform their statements? And where are all these positive tests being done?

[the other bob wilson]

Riddle me this.

Rhondda Cynon Taff is reported as having an infection raite of 177/100,000.
Abercynon test centre was doing about 1000 tests a day 2 weeks oe so ago, now they are doing 300. That is the limit put on them by the government.
Other test centres like Ebbw Vale have similar restrictions imposed.
The mobile Unit attached to Cardiff Test Centre has been paid for 8 weeks and has never left its base to carry out 1 single test. There are far fewer test being carried out now that 2 weeks ago. A new test centre set up in Pontypridd is hardly used and they are now setting one up in Museum Place in Cardiff on Wednesday.

So where is the government getting the figures that inform their statements? And where are all these positive tests being done?

Is it because there are so many positive tests being done in Hospitals and Care Homes? Wouldn't have thought so myself.

Changing topic somewhat, this is an interesting development;-

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...pandemic-risks

[xsnaggle]

Is it because there are so many positive tests being done in Hospitals and Care Homes? Wouldn't have thought so myself.

Changing topic somewhat, this is an interesting development;-

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...pandemic-risks

I get what you mean, but they still have to be counted in the test total, and if all the new cases were in care homes and hospitals shirley they wouldn't be locking down whole towns and cities? It makes no sense.
There are tow trains of thought amongst those involved, one is there is a lack of test kits, but if that were the case it would be in all the newspapers and the Westminster Government would be getting blamed (I have no idea if Wales NHS is responsible for sourcing its own kits)
-and the other is that they are preventing the test centres from testing people from outside their own area because they don't want people crossing into an area in partial lockdown. It is a fact that they are no longer getting people coming for test from Gloucestershire and Somerset, or anywhere else except locally.
Perhaps the Welsh government is acting to stop English people coming into wales in any way it can because The UK government won't make the order. But even that doesn't make sense because if there is a spike in places like Merthyr and RCT then there should be a surge in people wanting tests but it ain't happening.
This means you can cross a boundary to go to school but not to find out if you have a potentially fatal illness.

[Hilts]

There are also new test centres in Aberdare and Treorchy. I know loads of people diagnosed recently. My wifes in isolation for an outbreak at her work. Number of cases in the CH her mothers in as well.

Its a nightmare at the moment and Spring is a long way off.

[Des Parrot]

Just a quick update from me. First symptoms on Sept 16th, minor sore throat. 9 people caught Covid in the same meeting despite us using all of the benchmark measures. At no point have I had an elevated temperature, cough or loss of taste. For a week of so I had muscle fatigue, chronic gastric issues, diarrhea, ate nothing and drank gallons of water. That was followed by a week or so struggling to breath, dizziness & loss of co-ordination. Slowly over the last week things have got back to normal but with the occasional day where the breathing issues return. it's now just shy of 4 weeks and nearly sorted. One major continued showstopper is smoke, perfume or deodorant, which flattens me immediately! I've also lost nearly 2 stone in the last month.

I think I've got away relatively lightly. Be warned about the "symptoms", as in my case, I had "none" of the tell tale symptoms.