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If God is the creator , is all powerful , everywhere and benevolent , forgiving , loving and kind then he's got to be responsible for ensuring kids don't die of cancer and if he can't do it he should surely ensure that mankind can do it through medicine
Christians want it both ways
God is all powerful and everywhere. If someone survives a car crash its because the family asked God to save the person by praying or God gave the doctors the knowledge through his power , to treat the person .
If the person dies its either mankind's fault , somebody has sinned or God has decided he wants to take that person into his place called heaven
A get out clause for everything
So basically God is a winner whichever way you look at it if you are a Christian . They simply will not accept analytical thought .
On a Sunday morning nicky Campbell, a Christian, presents the big question . Its all about religion basically and usually has someone from the Catholic, protestant , Anglican, Muslim, Jewish Hindu etc faith sitting down debating some nonsense and a scientist like Dawkins or his kind of enlightened sort trying to put em straight
It normally starts OK but within no time he will have them on the ropes and the tired old arguments and excuses will come out to justify their beliefs , none of them based on facts
The usual one is ........Jesus told us in the bible that ........some silly story about some such event which has no basis in fact
Or Mohammed told us this or did that ......again clearly complete fantasy
Whereas a scientist will prove to us that if we mix chemical a with chemical b it will produce chemical c which will be great for cleaning out drains but if you drink it , it will burn your throat out .........no maybe , no possibly .........a fact
The Jesus myth has been around for 2000 years
Its a fact and has been proved by carbon dating that dinosaurs 🦕 ruled the earth long before that. You would have thought they would have got a mention in the bible
But maybe that was God being a cheeky chappie again 🤔
The vast majority of educated people such as scientists , doctors , biologists etc consider the facts and these people don't go to church or believe in God
Poor people , in poor countries such as Brazil seem to cling to religion with a desperate , blind faith
Of course there are educated people who follow the word of the Lord but the balance shifts generally as you move up the ladder
[QUOTE=SLUDGE FACTORY;5169255]I
The Jesus myth has been around for 2000 years
/QUOTE]
This statement alone ensures that I will not be taking any further part in this debate! Sorry, Sludge.
The fact that most people, if they become believers at all (even if it's for a short time), tend to take on the first religion they are exposed to is patently obvious. That's why there are few Sikhs in Greenland and few (if any) Toaists in Venezuela etc.
Many people have, to use your words, an 'incontravertable certainty' of their particular deity but so what? Populism means nothing and anyone with such a certainty about their own particular deity/deities or idol/idols is outnumbered by those who have the same certainty about other deities and idols.
There could possibly be a creator of come description (probably chemical rather that an entity that mimics the qualities, sensitivities and appearance of a human being) but it's hardly likely that it will be a particular icon that was invented by man in a specific point in time, in a specific location and when the average Joe was exposed to most minimalist science. And as I have said before, many of the stories in so-called holy books came from earlier forms of religion (and why believers don't seem to take that on board is quite amusing).
Do me a favour and accept that I will not believe in any currently (or historically) worshipped deity or idol. In turn, I will continue not suggesting that you, personally, may be looking at the things the wrong way.
[QUOTE=Gofer Blue;5169269]No problem
The bible , which is a series of writing sometimes hundreds of years after this Jesus bloke died on the cross , is give or take about 2000 years old now
Nothing that is written in the bible has proved to be a fact
But 2000 years after the death , or apparent death , of someone called Jesus, who its never been proven actually existed ...I think he was probably a hippy anarchist type bloke who was kind .........people still live their lives on this Bible
Considering we have been here a long long time as a species as has the planet and we have science , education and progress I think its worrying that people put their faith in a bloke who existed 2000 years ago . And that's just one bloke and his old man .
What about the person who invented the first vaccine against covid ? Shouldn't we be praising him or her ?
Or did God do that ?
Or the person who invented the processed , preserved food shipped to the starving in Africa, saving millions of lives
Or did God do that ?
If he's that powerful why didn't he stop the drought in the first place in Ethiopia that led to the famine in the first place ?
Christians have an excuse for everything and an answer for nothing
It's funny how scientology is openly mocked because it's a "made up" religion, other than being modern how is it any different from any of the others?
[QUOTE=SLUDGE FACTORY;5169289]Interesting debate and your views and those of Heisenberg is proof indeed that humans have the free will that God graced us with. Your comments about Jesus surprise me as your birth is measured by the days and years since his birth. A person that was so insignificant, according to you, that the world counts time by him.
Whether you believe in God or not the immense order and interdependence of species on earth indicates that it came about by more that chance chaos.
Personally I believe that God created heaven and earth and all things visible and invisible. In his creation is the blueprint for everything. There are some certainties, ...'from ash we came and to ash we will return', and that applies to all life.
I have a good mate a very famous scientist. He was the first person to discover a drug to successfully treat what was, not so long ago, a disease that killed a lot of people. Did he discover something 'new' in the sense that it didn't exist before? No, it was there in God's blueprint and he found out how to use it to help mankind. You could say the same about science and Covid vaccines
I mention balance and interdependence in life and the comments you and others have made questioning why God did not get rid of Covid, or save ill children, or feed the hungry. It's hard to take but how can he? The answers are in our hands not his. Divine intervention might be the answer you want to hear but there will be consequences in changing the blueprint of nature We see it ourselves in what we do to this planet, be it climate change, or war, or insecticides killing bees and affecting plant pollination..we are screwing up the blueprint that keeps everything in balance.
And finally there is the assumption that God has it all his own way as long as it's good. Sounds a bit dramatic but there are good and evil forces in this world and they compete for supremacy. There are the same forces in every human being and we only need to look through a newspaper of history book to see for ourselves.
But, for sure God is there to support you if you ask him and he will never turn his back on you, even if you turn your back on him
N[QUOTE=lisvaneblue;5169305]You make the mistake of referring to natural selection as chance chaos. It is not. Darwin’s great work has nothing to do with chance and subsequent discoveries ( Crick and Watson and DNA ) have proved conclusively that there is no longer a debate worth having between creationism and evolution. Membership of the Flat Earth Society has also been dwindling in recent times and the Catholic Church issued a grovelling apology some time ago to Galileo for suggesting the Earth went round the sun and not vice versa.
You also make the mistake of stating that we are endowed with free will. This is as big a delusion as belief in God. We are merely products of luck and decisions that we may make are determined by myriads of factors that impose upon us. Try telling the child born with an incurable congenital disease that it has free will.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for the existence of God. Remember that where you are born will, in most cases, determine which God you follow be it Allah, Jehovah, Shiva, Jesus, Zoroaster, Buddha and the thousands of Gods prevalent in all corners of the Earth. This is obviously not a matter of free will but engineered by man. It is all made up just like the lunatic conception of original sin and redemption.
I think you're confusing god with starwars.And finally there is the assumption that God has it all his own way as long as it's good. Sounds a bit dramatic but there are good and evil forces in this world and they compete for supremacy. There are the same forces in every human being and we only need to look through a newspaper of history book to see for ourselves.
But, for sure God is there to support you if you ask him and he will never turn his back on you, even if you turn your back on him
Doesn't sound like the behaviour of an omnipotent god. Mad that his blueprints involves kids dying and being raped by priests.I mention balance and interdependence in life and the comments you and others have made questioning why God did not get rid of Covid, or save ill children, or feed the hungry. It's hard to take but how can he? The answers are in our hands not his. Divine intervention might be the answer you want to hear but there will be consequences in changing the blueprint of nature We see it ourselves in what we do to this planet, be it climate change, or war, or insecticides killing bees and affecting plant pollination..we are screwing up the blueprint that keeps everything in balance.
A question I'd be interested in hearing an answer to is this, "if God created everything how did the devil get created then"? A fallen angel but surely if God created everything he would have made it perfectly?!
One of the many questions I've wanted to ask for years but logical questions were a no no in a strict religious household.
So god did create lukemia for kids then?Personally I believe that God created heaven and earth and all things visible and invisible.
Bit off like.
My general view of religion/god stuff is if it makes you happy, you need it etc then crack on, enjoy. It’s only when they try and push their often bizarre views on people it bothers me....just leave it, enjoy it, but leave me out of it.
I'll leave it to someone much more eloquent than me to explain my point of view.
https://youtu.be/-suvkwNYSQo