Revised HS2 Is the government right or wrong?

[JamesWales]

Why do you think diverting 25% of the supposed budget to potholes and mostly away from the branded Network North is an extreme example?

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...money-27843415

I've said. From the range of projects that will receive funding, from electrification to new roads to trams etc, potholes is an extreme example - the smallest of all those schemes. They still matter to a lot of people though, even if they don't to you.

Again, do you not support any of the projects that will now receive funding previously tied to HS2 then?

Or do you think we can have it all?

[cyril evans awaydays]

I've said. From the range of projects that will receive funding, from electrification to new roads to trams etc, potholes is an extreme example - the smallest of all those schemes. They still matter to a lot of people though, even if they don't to you.

Again, do you not support any of the projects that will now receive funding previously tied to HS2 then?

Or do you think we can have it all?

How do you conclude a quarter of this magic fund is extreme? You seem to major on other people's naivety when it comes to politics. Yet you blindly accept Sunak's "reallocation" of a budget starting in 2029 that he will never be in power to spend that suggests a sprinkling of "new" projects from Plymouth to Sunderland via Dover via most marginal constituencies in between, none of which will get started before next year's election like it came down on tablets of stone from Mount Sinai.

To answer your question, who doesn't like an infrastructure proposal? I guess except those who prefer infrastructure implementations!

[JamesWales]

How do you conclude a quarter of this magic fund is extreme? You seem to major on other people's naivety when it comes to politics. Yet you blindly accept Sunak's "reallocation" of a budget starting in 2029 that he will never be in power to spend that suggests a sprinkling of "new" projects from Plymouth to Sunderland via Dover via most marginal constituencies in between, none of which will get started before next year's election like it came down on tablets of stone from Mount Sinai.

To answer your question, who doesn't like an infrastructure proposal? I guess except those who prefer infrastructure implementations!

I'll say for a third time - potholes are extreme examples of the improvements because they are of a tiny scale compared to rail electrification, trams, road dualling etc. That's why I said that.

I don't blindly accept anything. I do accept reality though. And moaning on here purely because of who made the announcement is futile. And yeah I do also support focusing on a greater number of smaller projects rather than one large one.

Good to see you seem to support the projects that now will receive funding. It goes without saying that in an ideal world everything gets funded, but we don't live in that world.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I'll say for a third time - potholes are extreme examples of the improvements because they are of a tiny scale compared to rail electrification, trams, road dualling etc. That's why I said that.

I don't blindly accept anything. I do accept reality though. And moaning on here purely because of who made the announcement is futile. And yeah I do also support focusing on a greater number of smaller projects rather than one large one.

Good to see you seem to support the projects that now will receive funding. It goes without saying that in an ideal world everything gets funded, but we don't live in that world.

I tell you what's futile

You , giving it the nuanced nonsense when yet again today you have spent your time on here defending sunak and his party and followers ....that's you .....going back on what they said they would do

It's their fault and it's your fault because you prop them up

Day in day out your suck up to them , it's cringeworthy nonsense wrapped up in clever dick talk

Maybe one day you will come on here and say christ lads question time was shocking the tory mp was battered and looked totally isolated , the conference was crap , ss braverman is going down a nasty right wing path .....etc etc

A bit of honesty really and acceptance instead of this feathered ego political debating cobblers , you are only fooling yourself

But you havnt got the balls

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I'll say for a third time - potholes are extreme examples of the improvements because they are of a tiny scale compared to rail electrification, trams, road dualling etc. That's why I said that.

I don't blindly accept anything. I do accept reality though. And moaning on here purely because of who made the announcement is futile. And yeah I do also support focusing on a greater number of smaller projects rather than one large one.

Good to see you seem to support the projects that now will receive funding. It goes without saying that in an ideal world everything gets funded, but we don't live in that world.

Put a sock in it you daft sod

[JamesWales]

I tell you what's futile

You , giving it the nuanced nonsense when yet again today you have spent your time on here defending sunak and his party and followers ....that's you .....going back on what they said they would do

It's their fault and it's your fault because you prop them up

Day in day out your suck up to them , it's cringeworthy nonsense wrapped up in clever dick talk

Maybe one day you will come on here and say christ lads question time was shocking the tory mp was battered and looked totally isolated , the conference was crap , ss braverman is going down a nasty right wing path .....etc etc

A bit of honesty really and acceptance instead of this feathered ego political debating cobblers , you are only fooling yourself

But you havnt got the balls

The problem is Sludge is that your view of reality isnt very accurate. Only today on numerous occasions you have promoted weird, unfounded conspiracy theories about some sinister racist organisation at the heart of the govt that even the PM isn't aware of etc.

So seeing things differently to you is something I am pleased to do.

I know you think every day is an apocalyptic disaster but it really isn't the case.

You should stand on Queen St with a placard and promote some of your ideas some day.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The problem is Sludge is that your view of reality isnt very accurate. Only today on numerous occasions you have promoted weird, unfounded conspiracy theories about some sinister racist organisation at the heart of the govt that even the PM isn't aware of etc.

So seeing things differently to you is something I am pleased to do.

I know you think every day is an apocalyptic disaster but it really isn't the case.

You should stand on Queen St with a placard and promote some of your ideas some day.

Christ your poor missus

It must be torture listening to you never accepting you are backing the wrong horse and doing everything to carry on despite 20 stewards enquiries all telling you what an arse you are

Your only buddy in this freak show is pipster and he's got about 20 different personalities

It's like asking Norman Bates to be your best man

If the Tories get absolutely stuffed and are on tv crying their hearts out you will dash round to go live on air and cheer them up

Where's your dignity ff sake

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The problem is Sludge is that your view of reality isnt very accurate. Only today on numerous occasions you have promoted weird, unfounded conspiracy theories about some sinister racist organisation at the heart of the govt that even the PM isn't aware of etc.

So seeing things differently to you is something I am pleased to do.

I know you think every day is an apocalyptic disaster but it really isn't the case.

You should stand on Queen St with a placard and promote some of your ideas some day.

Christ your poor missus

It must be torture listening to you never accepting you are backing the wrong horse and doing everything to carry on despite 20 stewards enquiries all telling you what an arse you are

Your only buddy in this freak show is pipster and he's got about 20 different personalities

It's like asking Norman Bates to be your best man

If the Tories get absolutely stuffed and are on tv crying their hearts out you will dash round to go live on air and cheer them up

Where's your dignity ff sake

[JamesWales]

Christ your poor missus

It must be torture listening to you never accepting you are backing the wrong horse and doing everything to carry on despite 20 stewards enquiries all telling you what an arse you are

Your only buddy in this freak show is pipster and he's got about 20 different personalities

It's like asking Norman Bates to be your best man

If the Tories get absolutely stuffed and are on tv crying their hearts out you will dash round to go live on air and cheer them up

Where's your dignity ff sake

I just think HS2 is not the best use of transport funding. Never have. It's no more complex than that.

And my poor missus?! Jesus Christ! Yours would ask you what you fancied for tea and you would reel off some speech about how her last dinner utterly crashed the indigestion system, proclaim that the very concept of food was ruined by Thatcher and then quietly say bangers and mash having spent 25 minutes ruling out every other dish for being too Tory.

My missus would probably just ask why I spend so much time arguing with those people on the internet and I would do the right thing and concede she is absolutely correct (and then also have bangers and mash)

What is your favourite food incidentally?

[cyril evans awaydays]

I'll say for a third time - potholes are extreme examples of the improvements because they are of a tiny scale compared to rail electrification, trams, road dualling etc. That's why I said that.

I don't blindly accept anything. I do accept reality though. And moaning on here purely because of who made the announcement is futile. And yeah I do also support focusing on a greater number of smaller projects rather than one large one.

Good to see you seem to support the projects that now will receive funding. It goes without saying that in an ideal world everything gets funded, but we don't live in that world.

Some of use got your opinion that diverting 23% of the HS2 budget as being tiny scale the first time. We might also think that admitting that after a decade and a half of Conservative rule road maintenance has been underfunded by almost £9 billion tells its own story.

Perhaps you could amplify your point by providing the far less trivial percentages potentially allocated from the 2029 budget onwards for:

Potholes 23%
Rail Electrification (x) %
Trams (x) %
Road Dualling (x)
Etc (x)

[JamesWales]

Some of use got your opinion that diverting 23% of the HS2 budget as being tiny scale the first time. We might also think that admitting that after a decade and a half of Conservative rule road maintenance has been underfunded by almost £9 billion tells its own story.

Perhaps you could amplify your point by providing the far less trivial percentages potentially allocated from the 2029 budget onwards for:

Potholes 23%
Rail Electrification (x) %
Trams (x) %
Road Dualling (x)
Etc (x)

Cyril, I don't work for the govt. I don't have that information to hand and this is a football messageboard not a maths test.

I do think that multiple projects (some very large, some small) serving multiple communities is a better use of money than one huge project to get between Manchester and Birmingham about 20-30 minutes quicker.

Money is finite. You've already acknowledged the projects mentioned are welcome so just accept that not every thing can be done and decisions on spending are sometimes needed.

I don't think HS2 was the most pressing need for the country, nor do the govt, nor do millions of voters. Next week we should find out whether the Labour party do or not as they will have to make a call on it too.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Cyril, I don't work for the govt. I don't have that information to hand and this is a football messageboard not a maths test.

I do think that multiple projects (some very large, some small) serving multiple communities is a better use of money than one huge project to get between Manchester and Birmingham about 20-30 minutes quicker.

Money is finite. You've already acknowledged the projects mentioned are welcome so just accept that not every thing can be done and decisions on spending are sometimes needed.

I don't think HS2 was the most pressing need for the country, nor do the govt, nor do millions of voters. Next week we should find out whether the Labour party do or not as they will have to make a call on it too.

My mistake I thought you had the facts at your fingertips when you were stating that potential funding allocated in the 2029 to 2040 period (ie beyond the election after next) on trams massively outweighs that provisionally allocated to fix the appalling state of our roads as they will further be in six years time.

If you want to think this as some grand strategic plan of transport regeneration rather than blowing the dust off a hotch-potch of business cases that have been stopped and binned (and in some cases already delivered!) by the Conservative administration in its various guises over the last 13 years then I can't stop you.

I guess the history of mothballing of the majority of these "projects" in the past gives pause for thought if they will ever be rekindled should a) the money become available to start them in 2029 and b) the decision making be in the hands of the Tory who dusted them off.

As you say, we will see how Labour reacts to this rather obvious exercise in cynicism from the Crosby/Levido school of electioneering.

[JamesWales]

My mistake I thought you had the facts at your fingertips when you were stating that potential funding allocated in the 2029 to 2040 period (ie beyond the election after next) on trams massively outweighs that provisionally allocated to fix the appalling state of our roads as they will further be in six years time.

If you want to think this as some grand strategic plan of transport regeneration rather than blowing the dust off a hotch-potch of business cases that have been stopped and binned (and in some cases already delivered!) by the Conservative administration in its various guises over the last 13 years then I can't stop you.

I guess the history of mothballing of the majority of these "projects" in the past gives pause for thought if they will ever be rekindled should a) the money become available to start them in 2029 and b) the decision making be in the hands of the Tory who dusted them off.

As you say, we will see how Labour reacts to this rather obvious exercise in cynicism from the Crosby/Levido school of electioneering.

I never said the first paragraph you mention.

I also never said they were new projects. But a project without funding is just a piece of paper (I've worked on a few of those before!) So formally redirecting funding is significant.

And I think it's the right move. I have no idea what you think because you havent really said. You probably want to spend the same money twice over by doing both, but we all want that.

You are probably reading too much into this - I just think finding multiple alternative schemes is better than one big one. It's not a complex concept really and I have never supported HS2 - you can see on page 1 of this thread I said that in 2021.

[Doucas]

Sunak doing the equivalent of salting the earth by going to sell the land the Northern route was going to take.

What is his mandate for this? He's not been voted in.

Broadcasting to the world what an utterly weak and short sighted nation we are.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I just think HS2 is not the best use of transport funding. Never have. It's no more complex than that.

And my poor missus?! Jesus Christ! Yours would ask you what you fancied for tea and you would reel off some speech about how her last dinner utterly crashed the indigestion system, proclaim that the very concept of food was ruined by Thatcher and then quietly say bangers and mash having spent 25 minutes ruling out every other dish for being too Tory.

My missus would probably just ask why I spend so much time arguing with those people on the internet and I would do the right thing and concede she is absolutely correct (and then also have bangers and mash)

What is your favourite food incidentally?

Sausage , egg , chips and beans

Bread and butter

Cup of tea

[Rjk]

I didn't say the southeast was connected, I said a purely economic analysis of the projects is what has led to greater investment in the southeast in recent years. Not just in terms of transport infrastructure, but that does trump expenditure elsewhere.

by "recent years" do you mean the last 2000 years?

[JamesWales]

Sausage , egg , chips and beans

Bread and butter

Cup of tea

I think the beans and chips may cause problems as I don't like soggy chips but otherwise I'm in.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I think the beans and chips may cause problems as I don't like soggy chips but otherwise I'm in.

I have withdrawn that offer as you are getting all smarty pants americanised again

You can use the sausage as a breakwater to prevent soggy chip infiltration

[ninian opinian]

Rishi Sunak said today that the list of transport projects he outlined in his speech last week to replace HS2 were actually "illustrative" ideas for projects that "could be funded" and not necessarily the projects that would receive funding.

General Election now!!!

[Dorcus]

Rishi Sunak said today that the list of transport projects he outlined in his speech last week to replace HS2 were actually "illustrative" ideas for projects that "could be funded" and not necessarily the projects that would receive funding.

General Election now!!!

The party of bullshit

[Dave Blue]

I’m going to buy every house in my street. I’m just waiting for the funding. Tory used car salesmen. Despicable.

[life on mars]

Right, as long as they invest in better roads, local rail /bus connections, most folk up North wouldn't benefit from over priced HS 2 tickets and strikes. HS2 was only for the wealthy