Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

I used them only as a Welsh club that may be in League 1 next year. I think they would be interested as it would be a Welsh international and would tick a box for them.

May not be the quality box.

Fair enough. That’s a good shout thinking about it. You should become a documentary film producer! 👍

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

If Colwill is good enough he should be in the first team regularly

Sending him out on loan is a waste of time

He's clearly a talented player but not consistent

I would play him in every game till the end of the season and toughen him up

[KingOfSiamIAm]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

Regarding of Manager next season

what do we do with Rubin Colwill ?

His best position ?
Do we build a team around him ?
Is he good enough for top level championship / prem football ?

Had more minutes this season than last and I,m still 50/50 his best position for starters .

What do you lot think ?

Long-Rant-a-thon-Warning-Alert, and maybe going slightly off topic:

Regarding the Manager:
Early in the season, I liked the way we had a good shape "without the ball", and we pressed the opposition.

I like to see teams putting pressure on the opposition, especially defenders, because it tests their technique and exposes any weakness in it. It annoys me when I see Championship defenders strolling around, looking like Franz Beckenbauer. NO THEY ARE NOT!

I have always been of the opinion that if a Manager has been given a contract till the end of the season, then that should happen. It is one thing for us fans to get carried away basing our opinion on how a professional in his field is performing based on the last couple of results. It is another thing for the "real people in charge", to logically evaluate the progress, and decide if the Manager is worth investing in. The overall picture should be looked at... is progressive improvement happening? Based on the whole season... has there been an improvement? Should the Manager be invested in, going forward?

The way I see it is... the current Manager is too intransigent and set in his ways.
For example, there was a massive feel good factor after the Ipswich game. This should have carried on into the away game at Swansea Town. A team, that seemed to me, lacking in confidence and there for the taking.... a missed opportunity there.

Then the latest "performance" against Sunderland on Friday. OK, the pelenty was wrong, but Sunderland, as we were lead to believe in the lead up to the game, were a team of youngsters that had lost 7 of their last 8 games. Only recently scrambling a draw against struggling QPR.
Two nil down at half time, at home, hardly having a chance of our own during that half. Well... I have never played Professional football, so I can only imagine what a Manager would be saying at half-after witnessing that. At the very least I would have expected us to get some sort of momentum going.

Well, for what it is worth, I'll tell you what I remember as the sum total of us "attempting to get some momentum going forward" in that second half... a flicked pass from Ramsey that saw the receiver of the pass being flagged offside. The Sunderland goalkeeper jumping up and catching the ball....
Oh, and I noticed Turbull, who was warming up near us at the time when Sunderland missed yet another opportunity to score, after carving us open again for seemingly the umpteenth time that could have/should have put us 4/5 down... I tell you now, he was shaking his head in disbelief, and I don't blame him one bit, cos I was doing the same thing at the time!

The players that were brought on to effect the game were "established" (I.E old) players, that had zero impact in the game. Karlon Grant started as a striker. At least I think he did, cos he was running around mostly on the wing like he usually does. When we brought on the former Bristol player (who is on a temp 6 month contract), who incidentally did a worse job than poor old Karlon had done. Well, poor old Karlan was shoved out on the right wing for a bit. Then, to confound the situation, poor old Karlon was shoved over on to the left wing when the equally ineffective former Reading player was brought on, presumuably as a a battering ram to run around (and Batter a Ram) on the right wing. At least I think that was the plan.
During that time, and bearing in mind we were two-nil down at home, our defenders who have obviously been told to keep possession at the back, were all the time being pressed by the opposition, testing our lack of technique when under pressure (see Franz above), with no midfielders getting the ball from them and moving forward. I am willing to bet Sunderland couldn't believe their luck in playing a team so timid (just like these other teams this season, such as Leeds, Leicester, PRESTON FFS... etc, blah, blah, etc).

I said in a previous thread, which debated if we should get rid of the Manager, my thought at the time was that we should keep the Manager until the end of the season. At that time, my argument was that we will see how he reacts when under the cosh. He came through that.

But now, I see missed opportunitiees when he is making substitutions, bringing on "established"/old/past it/on-loan strikers that never look like scoring. With nothing to play for... why not reward some of the young hungry, albeit raw, players that are doing well in under 21s, with 20 mins, or half hour or so?
Can they be any more ineffective that those people that are being brought on? Maybe they are, but why not give them a run in the first team?

Maybe, just like Sunderland, they are found wanting for 6 games on the trot, but after they start to grow into the demands of real football, they may eventually play a team similar to this current City side, where a manager stuck in his ways, persists in using past it and on loan players, who week after week confirm how ineffective they are, and that have nothing to play for until the end of the season.

Rubin:
Many Managers have come and gone in short periods of time. Each one, Bullut included, want to keep their job, so are not willing to take a risk on untried youngsters, they will instead persist in using players with hundreds of games under their belt. After all, they don't want to risk their job!

In my opinion, previous, short-term thinking self serving Mangers have stalled Rubin's development. Each one comes in and publicly says "Rubin has to do this, or Rubin has to do that to become a professional footballer". I have no doubt that Rubin then goes into each training session and "does this, or does that" to show the Manager, that alien as it is, he can adapt and is willing to learn off the latest coach that thinks he is Pep's understudy in waiting. Then the next Manager comes in and publicly says "Rubin has to do this, or Rubin has to do that to become a professional footballer". I have no doubt that Rubin then goes into each training session and "does this, or does that", as the Manager instructs. He then gets overlooked. Then the next Manager comes in and says... well you get my drift. How is any young player expected to progress under such circumstance.

So in summary, my thoughts are:
Thank you Erol, you have turned us from looking like relegation fodder into Meh. That is an improvement on recent seasons.
Is the football any better? No, it is still lacking in any entertainment, but we keep possesion really well at the back, until we fall behind, then we pass the ball well at the back for a bit, with no midfeilder such as Gunner, or Jordan Much, capable of taking the ball from a defender and turning and going forward. We have plenty of players who can get the ball from a defender and pass it backwards to another defender.

I can't honestly bear thinking about another season of this rubbish that is being served up as Championship standard.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

Long-Rant-a-thon-Warning-Alert, and maybe going slightly off topic:

Regarding the Manager:
Early in the season, I liked the way we had a good shape "without the ball", and we pressed the opposition.

I like to see teams putting pressure on the opposition, especially defenders, because it tests their technique and exposes any weakness in it. It annoys me when I see Championship defenders strolling around, looking like Franz Beckenbauer. NO THEY ARE NOT!

I have always been of the opinion that if a Manager has been given a contract till the end of the season, then that should happen. It is one thing for us fans to get carried away basing our opinion on how a professional in his field is performing based on the last couple of results. It is another thing for the "real people in charge", to logically evaluate the progress, and decide if the Manager is worth investing in. The overall picture should be looked at... is progressive improvement happening? Based on the whole season... has there been an improvement? Should the Manager be invested in, going forward?

The way I see it is... the current Manager is too intransigent and set in his ways.
For example, there was a massive feel good factor after the Ipswich game. This should have carried on into the away game at Swansea Town. A team, that seemed to me, lacking in confidence and there for the taking.... a missed opportunity there.

Then the latest "performance" against Sunderland on Friday. OK, the pelenty was wrong, but Sunderland, as we were lead to believe in the lead up to the game, were a team of youngsters that had lost 7 of their last 8 games. Only recently scrambling a draw against struggling QPR.
Two nil down at half time, at home, hardly having a chance of our own during that half. Well... I have never played Professional football, so I can only imagine what a Manager would be saying at half-after witnessing that. At the very least I would have expected us to get some sort of momentum going.

Well, for what it is worth, I'll tell you what I remember as the sum total of us "attempting to get some momentum going forward" in that second half... a flicked pass from Ramsey that saw the receiver of the pass being flagged offside. The Sunderland goalkeeper jumping up and catching the ball....
Oh, and I noticed Turbull, who was warming up near us at the time when Sunderland missed yet another opportunity to score, after carving us open again for seemingly the umpteenth time that could have/should have put us 4/5 down... I tell you now, he was shaking his head in disbelief, and I don't blame him one bit, cos I was doing the same thing at the time!

The players that were brought on to effect the game were "established" (I.E old) players, that had zero impact in the game. Karlon Grant started as a striker. At least I think he did, cos he was running around mostly on the wing like he usually does. When we brought on the former Bristol player (who is on a temp 6 month contract), who incidentally did a worse job than poor old Karlon had done. Well, poor old Karlan was shoved out on the right wing for a bit. Then, to confound the situation, poor old Karlon was shoved over on to the left wing when the equally ineffective former Reading player was brought on, presumuably as a a battering ram to run around (and Batter a Ram) on the right wing. At least I think that was the plan.
During that time, and bearing in mind we were two-nil down at home, our defenders who have obviously been told to keep possession at the back, were all the time being pressed by the opposition, testing our lack of technique when under pressure (see Franz above), with no midfielders getting the ball from them and moving forward. I am willing to bet Sunderland couldn't believe their luck in playing a team so timid (just like these other teams this season, such as Leeds, Leicester, PRESTON FFS... etc, blah, blah, etc).

I said in a previous thread, which debated if we should get rid of the Manager, my thought at the time was that we should keep the Manager until the end of the season. At that time, my argument was that we will see how he reacts when under the cosh. He came through that.

But now, I see missed opportunitiees when he is making substitutions, bringing on "established"/old/past it/on-loan strikers that never look like scoring. With nothing to play for... why not reward some of the young hungry, albeit raw, players that are doing well in under 21s, with 20 mins, or half hour or so?
Can they be any more ineffective that those people that are being brought on? Maybe they are, but why not give them a run in the first team?

Maybe, just like Sunderland, they are found wanting for 6 games on the trot, but after they start to grow into the demands of real football, they may eventually play a team similar to this current City side, where a manager stuck in his ways, persists in using past it and on loan players, who week after week confirm how ineffective they are, and that have nothing to play for until the end of the season.

Rubin:
Many Managers have come and gone in short periods of time. Each one, Bullut included, want to keep their job, so are not willing to take a risk on untried youngsters, they will instead persist in using players with hundreds of games under their belt. After all, they don't want to risk their job!

In my opinion, previous, short-term thinking self serving Mangers have stalled Rubin's development. Each one comes in and publicly says "Rubin has to do this, or Rubin has to do that to become a professional footballer". I have no doubt that Rubin then goes into each training session and "does this, or does that" to show the Manager, that alien as it is, he can adapt and is willing to learn off the latest coach that thinks he is Pep's understudy in waiting. Then the next Manager comes in and publicly says "Rubin has to do this, or Rubin has to do that to become a professional footballer". I have no doubt that Rubin then goes into each training session and "does this, or does that", as the Manager instructs. He then gets overlooked. Then the next Manager comes in and says... well you get my drift. How is any young player expected to progress under such circumstance.

So in summary, my thoughts are:
Thank you Erol, you have turned us from looking like relegation fodder into Meh. That is an improvement on recent seasons.
Is the football any better? No, it is still lacking in any entertainment, but we keep possesion really well at the back, until we fall behind, then we pass the ball well at the back for a bit, with no midfeilder such as Gunner, or Jordan Much, capable of taking the ball from a defender and turning and going forward. We have plenty of players who can get the ball from a defender and pass it backwards to another defender.

I can't honestly bear thinking about another season of this rubbish that is being served up as Championship standard.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

Regarding of Manager next season

what do we do with Rubin Colwill ?

His best position ?
Do we build a team around him ?
Is he good enough for top level championship / prem football ?

Had more minutes this season than last and I,m still 50/50 his best position for starters .

What do you lot think ?

At present when he plays Colwill is expected to be the sole creative force in the side. Until we set up differently, we will never get the best out of him or find out how good he could be here.

Bulut doesn’t rate him. He loves to drop him or hook him. He brought Ramsey on and then he brought Ramsey back to play in midfield 2. Could be a maverick but he could have done that originally. At least Diedhiou came on, we could have put Colwill wide but we needed to get our prolific signing on the pitch.

[2b2bdoo]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

At present when he plays Colwill is expected to be the sole creative force in the side. Until we set up differently, we will never get the best out of him or find out how good he could be here.

Bulut doesn’t rate him. He loves to drop him or hook him. He brought Ramsey on and then he brought Ramsey back to play in midfield 2. Could be a maverick but he could have done that originally. At least Diedhiou came on, we could have put Colwill wide but we needed to get our prolific signing on the pitch.

You can’t debate anything without turning it into a Bulut hate campaign can you lol.

Could have just answered the questions.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

You can’t debate anything without turning it into a Bulut hate campaign can you lol.

Could have just answered the questions.

I don’t know what to do with Colwill because of that. I don’t hate Bulut. He’s a decent enough bloke but he’s a poor manager and we desperately need a new one. I just want a coach that can improve players.

Re Colwill’s best position. He’s a 10, and he should play there. He can walk past people. He’s got bags of talent but whether he’s got enough between his ears I don’t know but I do know he’s not developing, nobody is. Who was the last player we signed, improved and sold?

[2b2bdoo]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

I don’t know what to do with Colwill because of that. I don’t hate Bulut. He’s a decent enough bloke but he’s a poor manager and we desperately need a new one. I just want a coach that can improve players.

Re Colwill’s best position. He’s a 10, and he should play there. He can walk past people. He’s got bags of talent but whether he’s got enough between his ears I don’t know but I do know he’s not developing, nobody is. Who was the last player we signed, improved and sold?

I generally agree.

Except I think Colwill has improved a lot this season, looks a much more rounded player. He needs to play more for certain. I don’t think anyone knows what to do with Colwill, McCarthy, Morison, Hudson, Lamouchi, Page. I think Bulut has got a little more out of him in terms of he works harder but I agree he doesn’t know what to do with him or doesn’t think he’s up to it.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

I generally agree.

Except I think Colwill has improved a lot this season, looks a much more rounded player. He needs to play more for certain. I don’t think anyone knows what to do with Colwill, McCarthy, Morison, Hudson, Lamouchi, Page. I think Bulut has got a little more out of him in terms of he works harder but I agree he doesn’t know what to do with him or doesn’t think he’s up to it.

Mick did; Mick actually played him. For all his many failings, Mick was the last manager we had that gave the kids a go.

Just because 6 or 7 poor (and very defensive) managers can’t use him, it doesn’t mean he isn’t a talent. Every manager we’ve had is primarily concerned with not conceded goals, that’s their major concern. It was true with Morison (he said so repeatedly), Sabri, Bulut etc

[2b2bdoo]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

Mick did; Mick actually played him. For all his many failings, Mick was the last manager we had that gave the kids a go.

Just because 6 or 7 poor (and very defensive) managers can’t use him, it doesn’t mean he isn’t a talent. Every manager we’ve had is primarily concerned with not conceded goals, that’s their major concern. It was true with Morison (he said so repeatedly), Sabri, Bulut etc

Yeah Mick brought him in, not sure he knew what to do with him? I feel like I’ve seen a lot more of Colwill under Bulut than anyone else. I think he’s improved. He clearly had talent, I would love to see him have a strong finish to the season.

[Sparticus_Mills]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

I've watched all of the Wales U21 games when they have been on Youtube for this qualifying, Colwill is the outstanding player of that group, if he'd played for another club I think we as Wales fans would be very excited about him.

[Der Kaiser]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

Long-Rant-a-thon-Warning-Alert, and maybe going slightly off topic:

Regarding the Manager:
Early in the season, I liked the way we had a good shape "without the ball", and we pressed the opposition.

I like to see teams putting pressure on the opposition, especially defenders, because it tests their technique and exposes any weakness in it. It annoys me when I see Championship defenders strolling around, looking like Franz Beckenbauer. NO THEY ARE NOT!

I have always been of the opinion that if a Manager has been given a contract till the end of the season, then that should happen. It is one thing for us fans to get carried away basing our opinion on how a professional in his field is performing based on the last couple of results. It is another thing for the "real people in charge", to logically evaluate the progress, and decide if the Manager is worth investing in. The overall picture should be looked at... is progressive improvement happening? Based on the whole season... has there been an improvement? Should the Manager be invested in, going forward?

The way I see it is... the current Manager is too intransigent and set in his ways.
For example, there was a massive feel good factor after the Ipswich game. This should have carried on into the away game at Swansea Town. A team, that seemed to me, lacking in confidence and there for the taking.... a missed opportunity there.

Then the latest "performance" against Sunderland on Friday. OK, the pelenty was wrong, but Sunderland, as we were lead to believe in the lead up to the game, were a team of youngsters that had lost 7 of their last 8 games. Only recently scrambling a draw against struggling QPR.
Two nil down at half time, at home, hardly having a chance of our own during that half. Well... I have never played Professional football, so I can only imagine what a Manager would be saying at half-after witnessing that. At the very least I would have expected us to get some sort of momentum going.

Well, for what it is worth, I'll tell you what I remember as the sum total of us "attempting to get some momentum going forward" in that second half... a flicked pass from Ramsey that saw the receiver of the pass being flagged offside. The Sunderland goalkeeper jumping up and catching the ball....
Oh, and I noticed Turbull, who was warming up near us at the time when Sunderland missed yet another opportunity to score, after carving us open again for seemingly the umpteenth time that could have/should have put us 4/5 down... I tell you now, he was shaking his head in disbelief, and I don't blame him one bit, cos I was doing the same thing at the time!

The players that were brought on to effect the game were "established" (I.E old) players, that had zero impact in the game. Karlon Grant started as a striker. At least I think he did, cos he was running around mostly on the wing like he usually does. When we brought on the former Bristol player (who is on a temp 6 month contract), who incidentally did a worse job than poor old Karlon had done. Well, poor old Karlan was shoved out on the right wing for a bit. Then, to confound the situation, poor old Karlon was shoved over on to the left wing when the equally ineffective former Reading player was brought on, presumuably as a a battering ram to run around (and Batter a Ram) on the right wing. At least I think that was the plan.
During that time, and bearing in mind we were two-nil down at home, our defenders who have obviously been told to keep possession at the back, were all the time being pressed by the opposition, testing our lack of technique when under pressure (see Franz above), with no midfielders getting the ball from them and moving forward. I am willing to bet Sunderland couldn't believe their luck in playing a team so timid (just like these other teams this season, such as Leeds, Leicester, PRESTON FFS... etc, blah, blah, etc).

I said in a previous thread, which debated if we should get rid of the Manager, my thought at the time was that we should keep the Manager until the end of the season. At that time, my argument was that we will see how he reacts when under the cosh. He came through that.

But now, I see missed opportunitiees when he is making substitutions, bringing on "established"/old/past it/on-loan strikers that never look like scoring. With nothing to play for... why not reward some of the young hungry, albeit raw, players that are doing well in under 21s, with 20 mins, or half hour or so?
Can they be any more ineffective that those people that are being brought on? Maybe they are, but why not give them a run in the first team?

Maybe, just like Sunderland, they are found wanting for 6 games on the trot, but after they start to grow into the demands of real football, they may eventually play a team similar to this current City side, where a manager stuck in his ways, persists in using past it and on loan players, who week after week confirm how ineffective they are, and that have nothing to play for until the end of the season.

Rubin:
Many Managers have come and gone in short periods of time. Each one, Bullut included, want to keep their job, so are not willing to take a risk on untried youngsters, they will instead persist in using players with hundreds of games under their belt. After all, they don't want to risk their job!

In my opinion, previous, short-term thinking self serving Mangers have stalled Rubin's development. Each one comes in and publicly says "Rubin has to do this, or Rubin has to do that to become a professional footballer". I have no doubt that Rubin then goes into each training session and "does this, or does that" to show the Manager, that alien as it is, he can adapt and is willing to learn off the latest coach that thinks he is Pep's understudy in waiting. Then the next Manager comes in and publicly says "Rubin has to do this, or Rubin has to do that to become a professional footballer". I have no doubt that Rubin then goes into each training session and "does this, or does that", as the Manager instructs. He then gets overlooked. Then the next Manager comes in and says... well you get my drift. How is any young player expected to progress under such circumstance.

So in summary, my thoughts are:
Thank you Erol, you have turned us from looking like relegation fodder into Meh. That is an improvement on recent seasons.
Is the football any better? No, it is still lacking in any entertainment, but we keep possesion really well at the back, until we fall behind, then we pass the ball well at the back for a bit, with no midfeilder such as Gunner, or Jordan Much, capable of taking the ball from a defender and turning and going forward. We have plenty of players who can get the ball from a defender and pass it backwards to another defender.

I can't honestly bear thinking about another season of this rubbish that is being served up as Championship standard.

Can someone or the OP summarise this please. I’m not reading any post that long.

I assume it’s moaning about something.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

Can someone or the OP summarise this please. I’m not reading any post that long.

I assume it’s moaning about something.

It's a wankathon

Simply precis is he doesn't like bulut

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

Can someone or the OP summarise this please. I’m not reading any post that long.

I assume it’s moaning about something.

He’s put a summary at the end of the post.

[LA Bluebird]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

I don't even think as one of his biggest supporters I'd build a team around him. He hasn't shown that kind of consistent play to this point and he's clearly a poor fit for how Bulut wants his team to play.

With that being said, I do think he gets unneccesary stick for being young, Welsh and an academy product and having a subset of supporters wanting him to do well for that reason. Other than the first few games of this season and the first half of the Warnock season, when did we have a team in the last 10 years in which any forward thinking midfielder had a chance to look good? Harry Wilson is pretty much a Premiership regular at this point in a very decent Fulham team and there was a large section of our fans who thought he was shite because he couldn't impact a game with the ball flying over his head for 70 minutes every Saturday. Turnbull who was a first team player for Celtic and Scotland at a relatively early age is well on his way to being another. When far more experienced and well regarded players can't do it, does Colwill deserve the criticism? I find it hard to understand to be honest.