The Donald Trump thread

[chrisp_1927]

They may well do but I'm just guessing here that there will be some massively obscene contracts dished out to US/UK companies to 're-build' the infra-structure. It's all part of the war economy. Bomb, kill, rebuild. There's money in it. Lot's of it. Plus it tops up Western investment pots etc.

So.... What's happening in Ukraine is all the fault of the west and is being done just to make a bit of money?

[Citizen's Nephew]

So.... What's happening in Ukraine is all the fault of the west and is being done just to make a bit of money?

You might be onto something there! .... the UK/US aren't giving away bombs for free and the arms industry is a massive Western economy. Construction contracts are also massive business. I think 'The West' has a culpable role in all wars....everywhere. There's not a disconnect. Planes, bombs, tanks, land-mines are made in the West......)and yes, I know, we aren't the only ones) but if I write any criticism of Western policy and our reliance on capitalism, that doesn't make me a Putin apologist. Two wrongs do not make a right.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/15/w...-jd-vance.html

J.D. Vance’s Opposition to U.S. Support for Ukraine: In His Own Words
“I don’t really care what happens to Ukraine one way or the other,” Senator Vance has said.

Piss off right wing America

[Citizen's Nephew]

So.... What's happening in Ukraine is all the fault of the west and is being done just to make a bit of money?

Just out of interest. If all wars, everywhere stopped... what do you think that would do to the Western economy, global economy, just based on the importance of the arms industry?

Trump talks the talk but when it comes down to it, the USA needs wars. It's in its capitalist DNA. Trump is a 'put America first' guy. That means death and destruction as long as it isn't on USA soil of course. That means sucking up to the massive arms lobbyists. Basically, it means I don't trust anybody who buys into any of it.

[Citizen's Nephew]

It also means stoking conflict and creating 'enemies' to keep the business going. If only diplomacy and peace were profitable eh?

[chrisp_1927]

Just out of interest. If all wars, everywhere stopped... what do you think that would do to the Western economy, global economy, just based on the importance of the arms industry?

Trump talks the talk but when it comes down to it, the USA needs wars. It's in its capitalist DNA. Trump is a 'put America first' guy. That means death and destruction as long as it isn't on USA soil of course. That means sucking up to the massive arms lobbyists. Basically, it means I don't trust anybody who buys into any of it.

I'm no economist. But I'd imagine there'd be as much or more economic benefit by having places like Ukraine as thriving trading partners rather than as warzones.

As for the weapons being given to Ukraine, I believe it's a mix of grants and loans .

I'd respectfully suggest that, in this instance you are trying to tailor the circumstances to the arguement that you want to have(one about the military industrial complex) .



* I certainly don't think your argument is without relevance anywhere. I suppose the events of the Iraq war would be the prime example that immediately comes to mind .

[Citizen's Nephew]

I'm no economist. But I'd imagine there'd be as much or more economic benefit by having places like Ukraine as thriving trading partners rather than as warzones.

As for the weapons being given to Ukraine, I believe it's a mix of grants and loans .

I'd respectfully suggest that, in this instance you are trying to tailor the circumstances to the arguement that you want to have(one about the military industrial complex) .



* I certainly don't think your argument is without relevance anywhere. I suppose the events of the Iraq war would be the prime example that immediately comes to mind .

You're right. I am. I don't trust governments either. Why would I trust any leader when they all lie? I certainly don't trust Trump. Any President or prospective President is beholden to their paymasters before you add in corruption and personality issues. I mean, a regular guy with a criminal record in the US will have a massive problem getting a decent job with a decent wage but we've got a convicted felon running for president. The House always wins.

I'll leave Ukraine for another time and another thread.

[chrisp_1927]

You're right. I am. I don't trust governments either.

I can't think what would have made you so cynical about our leaders and governments. I mean looking back at our recent leaders, what a fine and upstanding body of men and women. We've been truly lucky to be led by such visionaries!!

[lardy]

Something weird is happening though, suddenly there are people with big money running from Trump

https://fortune.com/2024/07/23/elon-...f-personality/

[Taunton Blue Genie]

In terms of bringing the Russia/Ukraine war to and end, I think a Trump presidency would be a good thing.

In terms of bringing the war to and end and seeing Ukraine's pre -war borders restored, I think it's a very bad thing.

Thats the balance to weigh up, fundamentally. Do you let Putin get away with it, or do we have a perpetual war the west will never win as things stand?

A third option is if the West put it's full weight behind Ukraine, but that of course brings other consequences.

I don't know what the best answer is.

If the US cease support for Ukraine it's not simply be the case of the current state of occupation bring the status quo. It may very well be the case that Russia will seize the opportunity to advance across the whole country, as previously intended.

[JamesWales]

If the US cease support for Ukraine it's not simply be the case of the current state of occupation bring the status quo. It may very well be the case that Russia will seize the opportunity to advance across the whole country, as previously intended.

Could happen, yes, although in practice I don't think that was ever their real and realistic aim, which is to prevent Ukraine being in NATO. I think they would be most content with an authoritarian pro Russian leader in Kiev.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Could happen, yes, although in practice I don't think that was ever their real and realistic aim, which is to prevent Ukraine being in NATO. I think they would be most content with an authoritarian pro Russian leader in Kiev.

They would have to now occupy Kiev to install such a leader and probably continue to not only occupy that city but probably all the area east of the Dnieper, including Kharkiv. The installation of a pro-Russian leader in Kiev would definitely require futher expansionism in relation to the current scenario.

[Wales-Bales]

Something weird is happening though, suddenly there are people with big money running from Trump

https://fortune.com/2024/07/23/elon-...f-personality/

Vance is their man.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Vance is their man.

Crikey, no sooner do we get the two years in the making Newsom switcheroo than another bit of predictive text breaks the earth

[JamesWales]

They would have to now occupy Kiev to install such a leader and probably continue to not only occupy that city but probably all the area east of the Dnieper, including Kharkiv. The installation of a pro-Russian leader in Kiev would definitely require futher expansionism in relation to the current scenario.

Not necessarily. They more or less had it a few years ago with Yanokovych

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Not necessarily. They more or less had it a few years ago with Yanokovych

The situation is very different now. Much of the Ukranian population is more embittered than then.

[JamesWales]

The situation is very different now. Much of the Ukranian population is more embittered than then.

Yeah I agree. But I still think Russia would be happy with that as opposed to annexing the entire country

It goes without saying that both are entirely unreasonable expectations.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Yeah I agree. But I still think Russia would be happy with that as opposed to annexing the entire country

It goes without saying that both are entirely unreasonable expectations.

They may very well want to secure a route into its puppet pseudo-state Transnistria, which has become more isolated since the war. Ukraine closed its border to it since the war started and Moldova is aligning itself more with the West.
(A couple of years before the war started I travelled through Moldova to Transnistria and then to Odessa and Kiev in The Ukraine, where I stayed with local people).

[JamesWales]

They may very well want to secure a route into its puppet pseudo-state Transnistria, which has become more isolated since the war. Ukraine closed its border to it since the war started and Moldova is aligning itself more with the West.
(A couple of years before the war started I travelled through Moldova to Transnistria and then to Odessa and Kiev in The Ukraine, where I stayed with local people).

Oh that is very interesting. I am aware of the place. Long elongated shape, a hammer and sickle on that flag I believe, and a decent club side in Sheriff Tiraspol.

Why is is more aligned to Russia and views itself so differently to Moldova, which is such a small place in itself?

[Wales-Bales]

Trump talks the talk but when it comes down to it, the USA needs wars. It's in its capitalist DNA. Trump is a 'put America first' guy. That means death and destruction as long as it isn't on USA soil of course. That means sucking up to the massive arms lobbyists. Basically, it means I don't trust anybody who buys into any of it.

Hold on, there weren't any major wars under Trump. The US got rid of a few bad people here and there but that was about it.

[jon1959]

Hold on, there weren't any major wars under Trump. The US got rid of a few bad people here and there but that was about it.

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/20...always-a-myth/

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Oh that is very interesting. I am aware of the place. Long elongated shape, a hammer and sickle on that flag I believe, and a decent club side in Sheriff Tiraspol.

Why is is more aligned to Russia and views itself so differently to Moldova, which is such a small place in itself?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria

Russia also has its fingers in the pie in Georgia, Ossetia and Abkhazia being off-limits to the respective national governments.

[TWGL1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria

Russia also has its fingers in the pie in Georgia, Ossetia and Abkhazia being off-limits to the respective national governments.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-b...-leaders-early

Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner

[stevo]

They may very well want to secure a route into its puppet pseudo-state Transnistria, which has become more isolated since the war. Ukraine closed its border to it since the war started and Moldova is aligning itself more with the West.
(A couple of years before the war started I travelled through Moldova to Transnistria and then to Odessa and Kiev in The Ukraine, where I stayed with local people).

It’s Ukraine - not The Ukraine and someone as well travelled as you ought to know better. Referring them as The Ukraine is an insult to the Ukrainians. The Russians will love you for it though.

[Packerman]

He said he travelled to Odessa and Kiev in the Ukraine they are in the Ukraine. Doh