The Donald Trump thread

[JamesWales]

There are more people in history you know.

The history of the world isn't:

Dinosaurs die out > Hitler elected > Trump elected,

[Wash DC Blue]

If you took your opinion of the UK and Europe from certain sections of todays social media then you would probably have the impression that there's a mosque on every corner, and you can't leave the house without getting stabbed or raped.

Almost any post about the UK on twitter is met with a mass of replies from (likely russian) bot accounts pushing this false view and angry young men who have been convinced it is true.

Even though in reality almost all of Europe is safer in most ways than almost all of the US.

The most worrying thing is that this pernicious influence seems to have reached into the corridors of power in the US. And we can see this is already starting to pick apart decades old alliances.

It brings to mind the corrupting influence of the palantir in lord of the rings.

Just taking this on a very small tangent away from Trump….
But there really is a massive uptick in stabbing, rapes, mowing down of crowds by Muslims.
This is a fact and if people can’t acknowledge it or if people try to play it down, we really are screwed.

I don’t mind admitting that I am an Islamophobe…I’m petrified of the religion.
It’s a barbaric, dangerous religion and the rise of it across the West is frankly terrifying.

I’m not interested in whataboutery in talking about other religions or banning all religions.
There is a very real problem with Islam and people should at least acknowledge this.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

He's been bullying the kids on here for 20 odd years and now struggles with those who have said f**k you no more, his insults are getting more and more ludicrous as was evidenced when he got banned. and to think i voted to bring him back!!!

Up yours u tory lite

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Just taking this on a very small tangent away from Trump….
But there really is a massive uptick in stabbing, rapes, mowing down of crowds by Muslims.
This is a fact and if people can’t acknowledge it or if people try to play it down, we really are screwed.

I don’t mind admitting that I am an Islamophobe…I’m petrified of the religion.
It’s a barbaric, dangerous religion and the rise of it across the West is frankly terrifying.

I’m not interested in whataboutery in talking about other religions or banning all religions.
There is a very real problem with Islam and people should at least acknowledge this.

Didn't an American far right Christian mow down and kill people at an anti kkk rally in Charlotte?

[Wash DC Blue]

Didn't an American far right Christian mow down and kill people at an anti kkk rally in Charlotte?

That is whataboutism I believe.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

That is whataboutism I believe.

It's an answer to your claim ....which is incorrect .....

I am afraid the good old us of a is a prime example where crimes on behalf of God happen regularly

And the majority of these are carried out by Christians

Let's not go into the nutcase southern fundamentalists

Do you think that the child abuse ,rape and murder carried out by them is a free pass?

[A Quiet Monkfish]

It's an answer to your claim ....which is incorrect .....

I am afraid the good old us of a is a prime example where crimes on behalf of God happen regularly

And the majority of these are carried out by Christians

Let's not go into the nutcase southern fundamentalists

Do you think that the child abuse ,rape and murder carried out by them is a free pass?

Stalin 20m, Hitler 16m, Mao 40-80m. All Christians..

[jon1959]

Stalin 20m, Hitler 16m, Mao 40-80m. All Christians..

Various US presidents since WW2 - over 12 million. And pretty sure they all waved a bible whilst boasting of their exploits.

[JamesWales]

The conclusion is here that people of all faiths and none people on the far left and far right and in-between, and people of all ages and nationalities are capable of committing the most horrific crimes. Any conclusion other than that requires an ignorance of history

That absolutely does not mean we ignore the reality of Islamic fundementalism in the majority of European, Middle Eastern and African terrorism in recent years, or Christian fundementalism in places or Jewish fundementalism in Israel. It all happens. But seeking to change the topic from what's happening in Europe doesn't really help. In fact it only helps the parties that people who try to ignore it say they don't like, cos thats where people head towards.

[Dorcus]

The conclusion is here that people of all faiths and none people on the far left and far right and in-between, and people of all ages and nationalities are capable of committing the most horrific crimes. Any conclusion other than that requires an ignorance of history

That absolutely does not mean we ignore the reality of Islamic fundementalism in the majority of European, Middle Eastern and African terrorism in recent years, or Christian fundementalism in places or Jewish fundementalism in Israel. It all happens. But seeking to change the topic from what's happening in Europe doesn't really help. In fact it only helps the parties that people who try to ignore it say they don't like, cos thats where people head towards.

The conclusion is that human beings can be evil and despotism, greed, power, Narcissism, Nationalism, racism, religion and other factors can be used to inflict unspeakable pain and suffering. We should all embrace solidarity and be vigilant against these malign influences.

[Wash DC Blue]

It's an answer to your claim ....which is incorrect .....

I am afraid the good old us of a is a prime example where crimes on behalf of God happen regularly

And the majority of these are carried out by Christians

Let's not go into the nutcase southern fundamentalists

Do you think that the child abuse ,rape and murder carried out by them is a free pass?

Even Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchins have singled out Islam as being a lot more dangerous.

The reason that I brought it up was because RJK posted about how people perceive Europe on Social Media.

The news shows Islamic Terror and violence in Europe near enough every week.
People really have their heads in the sand.

It is dangerous, it subjugates women, persecutes gay people, puts fatwah’s on heretics, etc.

[jon1959]

Even Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchins have singled out Islam as being a lot more dangerous.

The reason that I brought it up was because RJK posted about how people perceive Europe on Social Media.

The news shows Islamic Terror and violence in Europe near enough every week.
People really have their heads in the sand.

It is dangerous, it subjugates women, persecutes gay people, puts fatwah’s on heretics, etc.

I don't know how many Muslim people you know, but I know quite a lot and none of them fit the description you have given.

There is clearly a serious threat from a small number of radicalised Islamists who have been behind some high profile terrorist attacks in Europe in recent years. But the biggest number (10x the number from Islamists) of terror incidents come from political separatists followed by far right domestic terrorists.

The UK has also suffered the impact of several grooming gangs (many of Pakistani heritage - not all - but mostly not immigrants as claimed in the US social media bubble), and a failure of police and other local agencies to pay attention to reports and act on them properly. Those incidents were horrific and a scandal, and went on for decades, but they are well over a decade old. Children may still be abused, but the culture of turning a blind eye is hopefully over, and both the media and judicial investigations are on the case. There was more government action to dig deeper in January.

A lot of women and girls were victims, and no one should downplay the crimes. But the reality of what happened, and the reality of Islamist terrorism, is not what is reflected back by US social media and the bile of politicians like Marjory Taylor Greene. That is full of racist shit, made up rubbish about no-go areas in major cities, London-stan and the rest. This from a country with a massively bigger right wing domestic terror problem (accounting for the majority of attacks and plots since 9/11), and nearly 20,000 murder deaths a year.

I may not be typical - although I think maybe I am - but I am going to the USA next month (went for the first time last year) and I know I feel safer in Europe (any part of Europe) than I do in the 'land of the free'.

[Wash DC Blue]

I don't know how many Muslim people you know, but I know quite a lot and none of them fit the description you have given.

There is clearly a serious threat from a small number of radicalised Islamists who have been behind some high profile terrorist attacks in Europe in recent years. But the biggest number (10x the number from Islamists) of terror incidents come from political separatists followed by far right domestic terrorists.

The UK has also suffered the impact of several grooming gangs (many of Pakistani heritage - not all - but mostly not immigrants as claimed in the US social media bubble), and a failure of police and other local agencies to pay attention to reports and act on them properly. Those incidents were horrific and a scandal, and went on for decades, but they are well over a decade old. Children may still be abused, but the culture of turning a blind eye is hopefully over, and both the media and judicial investigations are on the case. There was more government action to dig deeper in January.

A lot of women and girls were victims, and no one should downplay the crimes. But the reality of what happened, and the reality of Islamist terrorism, is not what is reflected back by US social media and the bile of politicians like Marjory Taylor Greene. That is full of racist shit, made up rubbish about no-go areas in major cities, London-stan and the rest. This from a country with a massively bigger right wing domestic terror problem (accounting for the majority of attacks and plots since 9/11), and nearly 20,000 murder deaths a year.

I may not be typical - although I think maybe I am - but I am going to the USA next month (went for the first time last year) and I know I feel safer in Europe (any part of Europe) than I do in the 'land of the free'.

The likes of Marjory Taylor Green is a vile racist cow, much like Katy Hopkins or Anne Coulther.
It is embarrassing that she holds the position that she does.
No defending her ignorant way of talking or people using Europe’s very real problems as a shield to avoid answering questions.

It is possible to separate Muslims from Islam.
It’s not a dislike of Muslim people but a totally fair rational fear of their religion.

It’s reasonable to say that the US has a problem with mass shooters to the point where it doesn’t shock any more.
The same could be said of Islamist attacks in Europe.

What about the persecution of Homosexuals or how women are treated in Islam?

Things will only get worse unless there is a grown up discussion about these problems.

[stevo]

I knew Jon would make a better job of responding than I ever could. But it’s essentially the same point I was going to make.

I will add that a lot of Americans have a very skewed view of Europe and the U.K. depending on what media outlets they follow.

And Washington DC Blue will know this better than most on here.

[Wash DC Blue]

I knew Jon would make a better job of responding than I ever could. But it’s essentially the same point I was going to make.

I will add that a lot of Americans have a very skewed view of Europe and the U.K. depending on what media outlets they follow.

And Washington DC Blue should know this better than most on here.

What should I know better about?
I was responding to a post that essentially denied that Europe has a problem with Islam.

I am honestly baffled how deep thinking liberal folk can defend Islam.
Maybe it’s because the likes of Yaxley-Lennon speak about it?

[JamesWales]

I don't know how many Muslim people you know, but I know quite a lot and none of them fit the description you have given.

There is clearly a serious threat from a small number of radicalised Islamists who have been behind some high profile terrorist attacks in Europe in recent years. But the biggest number (10x the number from Islamists) of terror incidents come from political separatists followed by far right domestic terrorists.

The UK has also suffered the impact of several grooming gangs (many of Pakistani heritage - not all - but mostly not immigrants as claimed in the US social media bubble), and a failure of police and other local agencies to pay attention to reports and act on them properly. Those incidents were horrific and a scandal, and went on for decades, but they are well over a decade old. Children may still be abused, but the culture of turning a blind eye is hopefully over, and both the media and judicial investigations are on the case. There was more government action to dig deeper in January.

A lot of women and girls were victims, and no one should downplay the crimes. But the reality of what happened, and the reality of Islamist terrorism, is not what is reflected back by US social media and the bile of politicians like Marjory Taylor Greene. That is full of racist shit, made up rubbish about no-go areas in major cities, London-stan and the rest. This from a country with a massively bigger right wing domestic terror problem (accounting for the majority of attacks and plots since 9/11), and nearly 20,000 murder deaths a year.

I may not be typical - although I think maybe I am - but I am going to the USA next month (went for the first time last year) and I know I feel safer in Europe (any part of Europe) than I do in the 'land of the free'.

I'm not sure about that stat about there being 10X more terrorist attacks from seperatists than Islamists in Europe in recent years?

Surely can't be true?

As for extreme right-wing, the most horrific was Anders Breivik in Norway but that was still half the number in the Paris attacks and I can't think of other large-scale far-right ones?

[JamesWales]

What should I know better about?
I was responding to a post that essentially denied that Europe has a problem with Islam.

I am honestly baffled how deep thinking liberal folk can defend Islam.
Maybe it’s because the likes of Yaxley-Lennon speak about it?

There was a thread on here a while ago about the left and the more conservative or radical elements of Islam and their awkward relationship. I think there's a lot of things coming into play. A natural anti-racism and anti - colonialism approach that perhaps haven't been adapted for more modern times, I dunno.

It is odd though and people keep very quiet on it, presumably for the reason of not wanting to inflamed community relations. The thing is, ignoring things most often makes the issues worse in my opinion

[JamesWales]

The conclusion is that human beings can be evil and despotism, greed, power, Narcissism, Nationalism, racism, religion and other factors can be used to inflict unspeakable pain and suffering. We should all embrace solidarity and be vigilant against these malign influences.

Inshallah and amen to that! 👍

[stevo]

What should I know better about?
I was responding to a post that essentially denied that Europe has a problem with Islam.

I am honestly baffled how deep thinking liberal folk can defend Islam.
Maybe it’s because the likes of Yaxley-Lennon speak about it?

I’m talking about Americans having a skewed perception of Europe and the U.K. and that you’re better placed than most on here to see that first hand.

[JamesWales]

I’m talking about Americans having a skewed perception of Europe and the U.K. and that you’re better placed than most on here to see that first hand.

I think we are the same with America though aren't we. Comparing a country that is more or less the size of Europe and applying blanket assumptions on school safety and the like.

So whereas a mass stabbing here happens in Germany, then the UK then Netherlands or whatever, we will report them all as happening in one country

[jon1959]

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/topic...2080%20attacks

[JamesWales]

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/topic...2080%20attacks

That's interesting, and it reminded me of this one I saw a year or two ago (which does give much greater prominence to jihadist groups etc)

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/i...facts-figures/

I genuinely don't know what they are recording as seperatist groups? Ireland and the Basque country much lesser than before. I know corsica has some rumblings and parts of Belgium too, but not anything serious or particularly newsworthy.

The one I've posted there also has left-wing terrorism far higher than right-wing which I find hard to believe.

Genuinely curious as to what they are counting as terrorism.

[Wash DC Blue]

I’m talking about Americans having a skewed perception of Europe and the U.K. and that you’re better placed than most on here to see that first hand.

Some certainly do, although the internet has altered perceptions a lot over the time that I’ve been here.

Hardcore MAGA refuse to accept any wrongdoing by Trump or his administration regardless of the consequences.
Many though are incredibly chill and well traveled.
For every Roscoe P Coltrane there is an Anthony Bourdain.

[az city]

The conclusion is here that people of all faiths and none people on the far left and far right and in-between, and people of all ages and nationalities are capable of committing the most horrific crimes. Any conclusion other than that requires an ignorance of history.

All those liberal progressive anti-theist despots ...

[JamesWales]

All those liberal progressive anti-theist despots ...

You disagreeing with that summary are you?