Runcorn by election.

[goats]

Reform would be Tories on steroids but without even a semblance of administrative nous. These "hard working" tradesmen types who are attracted to Farage like flies to shit will be seriously disappointed or worse if Nige's mob ever blustered their way into power.

They are already and have been since the Millenium…..

[goats]

For Farage in the 20s, read Mosley in the 30s, the motivation behind their parties is as old as the hills. In times of economic turmoil, populist grifters come to the fore offering all things to all men, and women.

Are we in economic turmoil now?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

You do go off on one - have a look at the things you’ve said to me in your last two posts. Whether Farage is a Fascist or not is something which is up for debate (my view is that the modern version of the man is not), but it’s far from absurd or tiresome for anyone to ask the question of him because it’s certainly not a straightforward black and white issue.

By the way, what party from the early 90s does Reform have so much in common with?

The BNP in suits

[the other bob wilson]

Are we in economic turmoil now?

I’d say we have been for five years at least.

[stevo]

Give it a bloody rest. Just accept that people are frustrated and want change,

I think the whole of this country want to see change. It’s just that many of us (hopefully the majority) know that Reform isn’t the answer, the reasons for which shouldn’t need explaining.

[JamesWales]

You do go off on one - have a look at the things you’ve said to me in your last two posts. Whether Farage is a Fascist or not is something which is up for debate (my view is that the modern version of the man is not), but it’s far from absurd or tiresome for anyone to ask the question of him because it’s certainly not a straightforward black and white issue.

By the way, what party from the early 90s does Reform have so much in common with?

In this thread we've had someone say (in jest I assume) their policies are to kick all the whites out, yet their chairman is not white. You said Farage hates immigrants when he's married to one. At the same time you both admitted you knew nothing of their policies.

We've subsequently had Sludge pop up and mention Hitler (he wins the CCMB Godwin award again) and now the BNP. You talk about the British Union of Fascists and compare things to the 1930s

If you can't see how this is just preposterous and incredibly sneering then so be it, but it's part of the reason great swathes of the working class turn away from the left. I suggest you all read the policies for what people voted for really. Not a bad starting point.

People, esp working class people, just want better lives and to feel things are moving forward. Collectively we havent really felt that since the mid naughties I would say, and people want better.

People didn't think Labour worked from 2008 upto 2010. People then gave the Tories a chance and kicked them out. We've been in the EU and now out of it and people are still dissatisfied. Not much changes. Maybe we have unrealistic expectations of what is achievable - I think we probably do to an extent - but people want change. They want more security and hope and a lot of other things. It's not massively complicated and it's nothing to do with Hitler and the 1930s or any of the other things. It's so insulting to voters to suggest it is, especially as these are people who in the last elections were voting Labour, Tory or Lib Dems.

Just does my head in every single time. People don't vote for a left-wing party and up pops someone claiming they must be fascists. It's like whack a mole.

[jon1959]

In this thread we've had someone say (in jest I assume) their policies are to kick all the whites out, yet their chairman is not white. You said Farage hates immigrants when he's married to one. At the same time you both admitted you knew nothing of their policies.

We've subsequently had Sludge pop up and mention Hitler (he wins the CCMB Godwin award again) and now the BNP. You talk about the British Union of Fascists and compare things to the 1930s

If you can't see how this is just preposterous and incredibly sneering then so be it, but it's part of the reason great swathes of the working class turn away from the left. I suggest you all read the policies for what people voted for really. Not a bad starting point.

People, esp working class people, just want better lives and to feel things are moving forward. Collectively we havent really felt that since the mid naughties I would say, and people want better.

People didn't think Labour worked from 2008 upto 2010. People then gave the Tories a chance and kicked them out. We've been in the EU and now out of it and people are still dissatisfied. Not much changes. Maybe we have unrealistic expectations of what is achievable - I think we probably do to an extent - but people want change. They want more security and hope and a lot of other things. It's not massively complicated and it's nothing to do with Hitler and the 1930s or any of the other things. It's so insulting to voters to suggest it is, especially as these are people who in the last elections were voting Labour, Tory or Lib Dems.

Just does my head in every single time. People don't vote for a left-wing party and up pops someone claiming they must be fascists. It's like whack a mole.

The 2020s look very different in some ways from the 1920s/30s but if you cannot see any parallels you are blind.

The post WW2 consensus is over as the last generation who experienced those times have died. We are in an era of growing wealth disparity, erosion of communities, well paid jobs and security. Services we expected to provide dignity and support are fraying or disappearing. Whole sections of the country feel abandoned as political promises are broken by both main parties. Right wing populism and demagogues are offering magic solutions (as they did a century ago) often based on directing hatred at ‘others’, but as then not the ‘others’ with the wealth and power.

Norms of behaviour are breaking down in mainstream politics and the media and echo chambers have replaced shared experience. The wider world is certainly more accessible than a century ago - but there the nationalistic (and yes sometimes fascistic) right is on the rise in the US, Russia, Hungary, Israel, Argentina and beyond - and these figures become icons for the disaffected around the world. There is a left wing populism in Europe and latin America but it is swamped by the right who own most of the mainstream and social media and control (dis)information and means of communicating.

The new right don’t have the same dress sense as Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Moseley or Lindburgh - but they share a lot of the same ideas and exploit the same disillusionment, despair and anger as their poster boys!

[the other bob wilson]

In this thread we've had someone say (in jest I assume) their policies are to kick all the whites out, yet their chairman is not white. You said Farage hates immigrants when he's married to one. At the same time you both admitted you knew nothing of their policies.

We've subsequently had Sludge pop up and mention Hitler (he wins the CCMB Godwin award again) and now the BNP. You talk about the British Union of Fascists and compare things to the 1930s

If you can't see how this is just preposterous and incredibly sneering then so be it, but it's part of the reason great swathes of the working class turn away from the left. I suggest you all read the policies for what people voted for really. Not a bad starting point.

People, esp working class people, just want better lives and to feel things are moving forward. Collectively we havent really felt that since the mid naughties I would say, and people want better.

People didn't think Labour worked from 2008 upto 2010. People then gave the Tories a chance and kicked them out. We've been in the EU and now out of it and people are still dissatisfied. Not much changes. Maybe we have unrealistic expectations of what is achievable - I think we probably do to an extent - but people want change. They want more security and hope and a lot of other things. It's not massively complicated and it's nothing to do with Hitler and the 1930s or any of the other things. It's so insulting to voters to suggest it is, especially as these are people who in the last elections were voting Labour, Tory or Lib Dems.

Just does my head in every single time. People don't vote for a left-wing party and up pops someone claiming they must be fascists. It's like whack a mole.

“Just does my head in” = Goes off on one.

My post about what Reform Uk stands for was semi serious. I had a fair idea of what they (Farage) are all about, but read the link to the manifesto posted. I then posted the Institutes of Financial Studies’ analysis of said manifesto which, essentially, says Reform’s sums are pretty wildly wrong. As I said earlier, Farage the charismatic, to some, populist is offering all things to all men, and women, like charismatic populists have done for centuries before him and it doesn’t have a history of ending well.

You’re going off on one about modern day parallels with the 30s, as you do every time the subject comes up on here, on the same day that Trump was taking steps to influence what is transmitted on public service broadcasting in America and you have to wonder how long public service broadcasting would last in it’s present format under a Reform Government that, no doubt, would have little problem with the stuff churned out by the likes of GB News and large sections of print and social media.I won’t use the word that sets you off on one, but it all sounds very, very authoritarian to me in the manner of much of what was seen in the 1930s.

The reason people want change is that they’ve been told by Labour and Tory Governments for seventeen years that they have to tighten their belts to cover the cost of a financial crisis that was caused mostly by greedy bankers. They voted for change, with no great enthusiasm, last July and instead have got more of the same from a timid, austerity driven version of Labour which is targeting the have nots while the rich get richer. Farage and his party are offering something different, but it’s something that cannot be delivered if you go by the analysis of respected and politically neutral financial analysts. In that way, they offer nothing different from populist parties of the right, and left, which tend to prosper when people are unhappy with their lot, but are nearly always shown not to have the answers large sections of the public are looking for.

[Jordi Culé]

Starmers response to the reduced Labour vote is an interesting one.

Rather than pull back on policies such as benefit cuts he appears to suggest they need to become more like Reform/Tories.

Good to see Sir Kier as a man of principles (the massive cuunt).

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Starmers response to the reduced Labour vote is an interesting one.

Rather than pull back on policies such as benefit cuts he appears to suggest they need to become more like Reform/Tories.

Good to see Sir Kier as a man of principles (the massive cuunt).

That was laughable wasn't it

He said ....I hear you

😆

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

In this thread we've had someone say (in jest I assume) their policies are to kick all the whites out, yet their chairman is not white. You said Farage hates immigrants when he's married to one. At the same time you both admitted you knew nothing of their policies.

We've subsequently had Sludge pop up and mention Hitler (he wins the CCMB Godwin award again) and now the BNP. You talk about the British Union of Fascists and compare things to the 1930s

If you can't see how this is just preposterous and incredibly sneering then so be it, but it's part of the reason great swathes of the working class turn away from the left. I suggest you all read the policies for what people voted for really. Not a bad starting point.

People, esp working class people, just want better lives and to feel things are moving forward. Collectively we havent really felt that since the mid naughties I would say, and people want better.

People didn't think Labour worked from 2008 upto 2010. People then gave the Tories a chance and kicked them out. We've been in the EU and now out of it and people are still dissatisfied. Not much changes. Maybe we have unrealistic expectations of what is achievable - I think we probably do to an extent - but people want change. They want more security and hope and a lot of other things. It's not massively complicated and it's nothing to do with Hitler and the 1930s or any of the other things. It's so insulting to voters to suggest it is, especially as these are people who in the last elections were voting Labour, Tory or Lib Dems.

Just does my head in every single time. People don't vote for a left-wing party and up pops someone claiming they must be fascists. It's like whack a mole.

Whilst the country has to accept that reform are now on the political table I think it's ridiculous to suggest they are anything but a bunch of right wing chancers

They look like they are appealing to 20 percent , possibly more of the voting public

Are you suggesting that the people who are voting reform are not doing it because of immigration and its because they want the NHS improved ?

You have for a long long time defended reform and admitted you are going to vote for them

Your right to do so but please lay off the crying wolf in a suit

I am not a racist but .....applies to most of reform .....and in many cases far worse

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I think Starmer is done and I certainly hope so

Whilst things change and local and by elections are often outliers the vote share is a reflection of how bad things are

Reform 30
Labour 20
Liberals 17
Conservatives 15

Unless he's thrown out and a deal is made with the liberals then it's either a reform or reform tory coalition

Even a change in leader and policy might not be enough

I don't know any labour voters who think he's any good and is going to turn things around

He did a good job on dealing with the trump Ukraine mess but at home he is clueless and floundering

Get him gone

[chrisp_1927]

Interested to see what they actually do with a bit of power. Seen precious little in the way of policy ideas from them at the moment. I think so far they've been all about stoking anger, very easy to be all things to all people when that's your approach. I'm not expecting great things, but you never know, they may surprise .

Really do think they're going to come unstuck though. It seems like a fair part of the population thinks that local councils are spaffing all the money that should go on bin collections and potholes on DEI and immigrants. When reform are the ones who have to explain that actually the majority of funds are going on care, with a small percentage left for the rest, what will their supporters think?

[Wash DC Blue]

It’s amusing to see the rise of right wing parties blamed on Social Media.

It takes two to tango in the culture wars and the left are equally to blame with the way that it has been hijacked by batshit crazy activists and defended by ostriches with their heads in the sand.

What were once were rational Labour voters are now considered far right reactionaries by the ostriches for having enough of the way things have been going and are lashed with sanctimonious venom for speaking their minds on what they see with their own eyes.

[Wales-Bales]

It’s amusing to see the rise of right wing parties blamed on Social Media.

It takes two to tango in the culture wars and the left are equally to blame with the way that it has been hijacked by batshit crazy activists and defended by ostriches with their heads in the sand.

What were once were rational Labour voters are now considered far right reactionaries by the ostriches for having enough of the way things have been going and are lashed with sanctimonious venom for speaking their minds on what they see with their own eyes.

The manipulation is obvious, yet so many people are oblivious to it.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

It’s amusing to see the rise of right wing parties blamed on Social Media.

It takes two to tango in the culture wars and the left are equally to blame with the way that it has been hijacked by batshit crazy activists and defended by ostriches with their heads in the sand.

What were once were rational Labour voters are now considered far right reactionaries by the ostriches for having enough of the way things have been going and are lashed with sanctimonious venom for speaking their minds on what they see with their own eyes.

Well there's getting pissed off with over the top trendy politics and there's voting for a right wing party bordering and crossing the line into racism

There's clearly a big difference

I think there has always been this right wing leaning it's just now these people have a party to vote for

I would only vote conservative if reform were the only other option

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The manipulation is obvious, yet so many people are oblivious to it.

Rational and voting reform

Kin hell ��

I would throw the same flannel at the revolutionary communist party

Potty

[Wales-Bales]

Rational and voting reform

Kin hell ��

I would throw the same flannel at the revolutionary communist party

Potty

The wheels are already in motion and can only be stopped by an extraordinary intervention. This is where being oblivious puts some people at a huge disadvantage.

[Jordi Culé]

That was laughable wasn't it

He said ....I hear you

😆

"I hear you..."

(I'm a right wing Tory wannabe cuunt who'll play to the crowd)

Fuucking waanker.

If he got popped would that be a little close to Kneecap territory?

I'm asking not suggesting...

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The wheels are already in motion and can only be stopped by an extraordinary intervention. This is where being oblivious puts some people at a huge disadvantage.

I am not oblivious to the growth of reform but that merely means people who vote for them either now have a party to vote for or have shifted from the Conservative and Labour party

Throw in a crap middle ground and bobs your uncle

There's no smoke and mirrors

[Dorcus]

I am not oblivious to the growth of reform but that merely means people who vote for them either now have a party to vote for or have shifted from the Conservative and Labour party

Throw in a crap middle ground and bobs your uncle

There's no smoke and mirrors

All that's going to happen come the real election is there'll be no overall majority. The Government will look like a patchwork quilt.

[Heathblue]

Well there's getting pissed off with over the top trendy politics and there's voting for a right wing party bordering and crossing the line into racism

There's clearly a big difference

I think there has always been this right wing leaning it's just now these people have a party to vote for

I would only vote conservative if reform were the only other option

Remember when you asked me to hold my nose and vote for HIM
As said previously, he will go down as the most hated PM this country has ever voted in
He's shat on the people he's supposed to represent in favour of the WEF
It wasn't a surprise when your favourite PM Thatcher shat on working the class, it was expected of her.
A so-called Labour PM has divided the UK faster than Trump managed to do it across the pond.
F***king stooges the lot of them, this isn't going to end well in the UK and it doesn't matter who has the keys to No. 10
Successive Governments have allowed traditional jobs for working class men and women to be sold off to foreign investment, lack of investment allowing the products to become inferior to Globalist counterparts, they do not govern for the people but for their masters, your man just had to import coal from Japan FFS to keep the last blast furnace in the UK from being shut down.

Coal Mining
Oil & Gas
Steel making
Car Making
Motorcycle industry
Shipbuilding
Textiles & Garments
Railway Locomotive Manufacturing
Chemical & Pharmaceutical
Farming
Fishing
Rail Infrastructure
Water
Electricity

By choice, I wouldn’t go anywhere near some of these industries but for many communities it was their lively hoods.
Destroying the countryside for acres of solar panels and wind mills is the best that these grifters and charlatans can come up with and their bullshit narrative of Climate bollox, I've told you before I've not voted for a PM since Tony Blair and that turned out to be a disaster, I'll certainly not ever vote again in a GE, the controlled destruction of Britain is why you have idiots like Farage, Robinson, Hopkins, the next time you go to a voting booth chest puffed out with your rosette of colour on display you are simply voting for the same agenda packaged with different words, if you think different then you are lost in a belief system. Farage may well be the next PM but it will be by design and as installed by the WEF and after 3/4 years his disciples will be saying, did we get anything different from Johnson or Starmer ? the answer will be no because he will be following the set agenda.

I'm a bit older than yourself although TBF you do look about 10 years older than me.

I finished an apprenticeship to become a Tradesman earning 8k p/a (Good Welders are very highly paid currently)!!
we were just scum back then and changed jobs for 5p an hour more.
My plot in Splott cost £16,250 to buy, under the old formula for a mortgage 2.5 x annual salary, i could have borrowed
£20,000, Doris was in the pudding club so didn't want to stretch to the max (if the wife/partner was working you could also put that wage into the formula)

In 50 years we have gone from a young family buying a bottom of the ladder house on one low wage, also raising at the time one child to the current situation of very little hope of aspiring youngsters to leave the family home and strike out to make their mark, kids still living with their parents at 30+ having to save a shit load for a deposit then having to be a slave to maintain it, or if preferring rental the prospect of the rent eating away 60/70% of the salary, forget the cherry picking of different governments, they have in lock step, enslaved the younger generation into the debt of university, I have three granddaughters 2 of them currently in university with the debt that goes with it and 1 who has decided that she would take a different path and is currently working in a career of her choice is earning, and has no debt, why the hell did a government decide that every child was suitable for university with very few going into apprenticeships!! This was simply utter bollox, and our trades person pool of labour is abysmal.
You know my son as a semi professional musician, in addition to the time he has to spend doing this he also works in a full time job and has only last year managed to escape the clutches of his mother and father.

Of course, I realise that wages and prices have gone up, and that there are some very talented youngsters who have managed to ride this but these will be the exception rather than the rule, managed decline hasn’t happened by accident or is the fault of one particular political party.

It’s often said that we follow America, in 3 years’ time Americans will also be faced with “he did nothing he said he would” Clinton will not be behind bars, Fauci will still be a free man, wars will continue to keep the Military Industrial Complex going, Big Pharma will still be raking in obscene profits, genocide will still be continuing in the middle east, I keep telling you I hate the fkin lot of them and wouldn’t piss on any of them if they were on fire. As you were!!!

I know how much you love Rugby and the game ive just watched, Northampton V Leinster was a brilliant game to watch.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Remember when you asked me to hold my nose and vote for HIM
As said previously, he will go down as the most hated PM this country has ever voted in
He's shat on the people he's supposed to represent in favour of the WEF
It wasn't a surprise when your favourite PM Thatcher shat on working the class, it was expected of her.
A so-called Labour PM has divided the UK faster than Trump managed to do it across the pond.
F***king stooges the lot of them, this isn't going to end well in the UK and it doesn't matter who has the keys to No. 10
Successive Governments have allowed traditional jobs for working class men and women to be sold off to foreign investment, lack of investment allowing the products to become inferior to Globalist counterparts, they do not govern for the people but for their masters, your man just had to import coal from Japan FFS to keep the last blast furnace in the UK from being shut down.

Coal Mining
Oil & Gas
Steel making
Car Making
Motorcycle industry
Shipbuilding
Textiles & Garments
Railway Locomotive Manufacturing
Chemical & Pharmaceutical
Farming
Fishing
Rail Infrastructure
Water
Electricity

By choice, I wouldn’t go anywhere near some of these industries but for many communities it was their lively hoods.
Destroying the countryside for acres of solar panels and wind mills is the best that these grifters and charlatans can come up with and their bullshit narrative of Climate bollox, I've told you before I've not voted for a PM since Tony Blair and that turned out to be a disaster, I'll certainly not ever vote again in a GE, the controlled destruction of Britain is why you have idiots like Farage, Robinson, Hopkins, the next time you go to a voting booth chest puffed out with your rosette of colour on display you are simply voting for the same agenda packaged with different words, if you think different then you are lost in a belief system. Farage may well be the next PM but it will be by design and as installed by the WEF and after 3/4 years his disciples will be saying, did we get anything different from Johnson or Starmer ? the answer will be no because he will be following the set agenda.

I'm a bit older than yourself although TBF you do look about 10 years older than me.

I finished an apprenticeship to become a Tradesman earning 8k p/a (Good Welders are very highly paid currently)!!
we were just scum back then and changed jobs for 5p an hour more.
My plot in Splott cost £16,250 to buy, under the old formula for a mortgage 2.5 x annual salary, i could have borrowed
£20,000, Doris was in the pudding club so didn't want to stretch to the max (if the wife/partner was working you could also put that wage into the formula)

In 50 years we have gone from a young family buying a bottom of the ladder house on one low wage, also raising at the time one child to the current situation of very little hope of aspiring youngsters to leave the family home and strike out to make their mark, kids still living with their parents at 30+ having to save a shit load for a deposit then having to be a slave to maintain it, or if preferring rental the prospect of the rent eating away 60/70% of the salary, forget the cherry picking of different governments, they have in lock step, enslaved the younger generation into the debt of university, I have three granddaughters 2 of them currently in university with the debt that goes with it and 1 who has decided that she would take a different path and is currently working in a career of her choice is earning, and has no debt, why the hell did a government decide that every child was suitable for university with very few going into apprenticeships!! This was simply utter bollox, and our trades person pool of labour is abysmal.
You know my son as a semi professional musician, in addition to the time he has to spend doing this he also works in a full time job and has only last year managed to escape the clutches of his mother and father.

Of course, I realise that wages and prices have gone up, and that there are some very talented youngsters who have managed to ride this but these will be the exception rather than the rule, managed decline hasn’t happened by accident or is the fault of one particular political party.

It’s often said that we follow America, in 3 years’ time Americans will also be faced with “he did nothing he said he would” Clinton will not be behind bars, Fauci will still be a free man, wars will continue to keep the Military Industrial Complex going, Big Pharma will still be raking in obscene profits, genocide will still be continuing in the middle east, I keep telling you I hate the fkin lot of them and wouldn’t piss on any of them if they were on fire. As you were!!!

I know how much you love Rugby and the game ive just watched, Northampton V Leinster was a brilliant game to watch.

That's all very romantic but the rot started with thatcherism

I sincerely hope starmer is forced out sooner rather than later

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

All that's going to happen come the real election is there'll be no overall majority. The Government will look like a patchwork quilt.

That's is definitely going to be the case

But as things are going either reform will win the most seats and form a minority government or they and the Tories will form a coalition

That will be a shocking evaluation of Starmer

So I think and certainly hope he will be out of number 10 long before the election