One for the music experts on here

[Wales-Bales]

I should add that a few of the campaigns I worked on included a “DIY artist, found on social media” backstory that was complete bullshit, and they’d actually had a £200k advance… but the press lap that stuff up.

If your relative is actually in debt to the “label”, rather than just having the money spent recording taken out of the royalties - that isn’t a label, they’ve been scammed.

That's what I mean, they will have to pay the costs before they make any money. I don't know if they got an advance or not, but I can find out.

[NYCBlue]

I have a teenage relative who plays in a band. They had 2 songs on Spotify and organised their own gigs and an international label found them and offered them a deal. The first thing they did was send them to a top studio to record a single. They are now in debt and there is a good chance they won't make it, but unless you are part of it people have no idea how things work these days.

If they don't make it, the label will drop them and take the loss. If they stay with the label, the money will be expected to be "recouped" from future royalties. The can't come after you if you don't recoup the money on the songs they released. What was the deal? Bands used to get signed for big money on a three or five album deal. That doesn't happen so much these days because it's so much harder to sell music. Often new bands will get signed for one album with an option for more.

[NYCBlue]

When trying to move up to the next level, so much of it is about a calculated gamble - you look at previous ticket sales, social media stats, how quickly tickets old last time etc to see how much demand is there. Say you sold out The Tramshed 6 weeks in advance last time round in Cardiff, you probably can calculate there's enough in the tank to play the Great Hall @ Cardiff Uni next time you play Cardiff, and move up a level of venue.

When bands go on support tours say at a Cardiff Uni level, the fees are again (on average) in the low hundreds, so generally it's a loss for the band per show. But if you've got a record coming out, and it's helpful to the press + radio teams for you to do the tour to help boost your profile and (at least on paper) sell more records, it's like the Edinburgh analogy - a bit of a loss leader, if you like.

Covid was bad - I was working for my old boss at the time so was put on furlough and moved back with my parents while my wife (girlfriend at the time), who was working in A&E, took my flat. But in all honesty I thought it was all over and I'd have to get another job. Thankfully I'd been doing it long enough by then that by virtue of just hanging on in there the work eventually came back, but the business is a lot different now post covid, a lot more American / business like with promoters generally not wanting to take as many risks.

Fees for headlining the Great Hall in Cardiff Uni are in the low hundreds? For a 1500 capacity venue? How is that?

[Earnie's bench seat]

Fees for headlining the Great Hall in Cardiff Uni are in the low hundreds? For a 1500 capacity venue? How is that?

For supporting, not headlining.

[Wales-Bales]

If they don't make it, the label will drop them and take the loss. If they stay with the label, the money will be expected to be "recouped" from future royalties. The can't come after you if you don't recoup the money on the songs they released. What was the deal? Bands used to get signed for big money on a three or five album deal. That doesn't happen so much these days because it's so much harder to sell music. Often new bands will get signed for one album with an option for more.

It's two advances which seems to be the going rate these days, one for an EP and a larger one for a followup album. The booking agents are a separate deal. It's not a massive amount though, and I'd imagine it's pretty standard with the labels spreading their cash around in the hope of landing a big fish. The obvious exception would be if a band turned up fully formed with a pile of existing material.

It will probably all end in tears for most new artists these days, and they'll be working in Tesco by the time they reach their mid-20's, but I suppose it's a bit of fun and a good life experience. It took bands like Fontaines D.C. 4 albums to get where they are now money wise, while plenty of other talented people are still struggling along, and going back to Cameron Winter he would have been one of them if he hadn't taken matters into his own hands.

[G rangetown Blue]

It's two advances which seems to be the going rate these days, one for an EP and a larger one for a followup album. The booking agents are a separate deal. It's not a massive amount though, and I'd imagine it's pretty standard with the labels spreading their cash around in the hope of landing a big fish. The obvious exception would be if a band turned up fully formed with a pile of existing material.

It will probably all end in tears for most new artists these days, and they'll be working in Tesco by the time they reach their mid-20's, but I suppose it's a bit of fun and a good life experience. It took bands like Fontaines D.C. 4 albums to get where they are now money wise, while plenty of other talented people are still struggling along, and going back to Cameron Winter he would have been one of them if he hadn't taken matters into his own hands.

In 2017 Fontaine’s DC played a pub gig in London. There were approximately 20 of us in there, including Steve Lamacq, who has ‘championed’ them ever since. They wanted to play Cardiff, and I booked them to play in Undertone (now closed) with a capacity of around 70. The next day their manager called me to say that a record company rep was also in the crowd, and that they were meeting in Dublin to sign a 4 album deal (inc a Grian solo), and we’d have to rearrange the gig after the album was finished.
They honoured their commitment, and eventually played at The Moon, probably the most people I’ve ever seen in there….the album was getting a lot of airplay on 6 music by this time, and their popularity rising.
They’ve completed the deal now, and for me the 1st and the last albums are the best, the middle ones are a bit meh, and obviously churned out to satisfy the record company.
It’s amazing to see how they’ve progressed, personally I thought The Murder Capital, also from Dublin, and starting out around the same time, were better, but I guess it’s all about being in the right place at the right time!
They are a great bunch though, and I’m glad they’ve “made it”, they recently played at Cardiff Castle, and their manager contacted me to invite me to the show, and remembered the gig across the street, just over 7 years ago.

[Wales-Bales]

In 2017 Fontaine’s DC played a pub gig in London. There were approximately 20 of us in there, including Steve Lamacq, who has ‘championed’ them ever since. They wanted to play Cardiff, and I booked them to play in Undertone (now closed) with a capacity of around 70. The next day their manager called me to say that a record company rep was also in the crowd, and that they were meeting in Dublin to sign a 4 album deal (inc a Grian solo), and we’d have to rearrange the gig after the album was finished.
They honoured their commitment, and eventually played at The Moon, probably the most people I’ve ever seen in there….the album was getting a lot of airplay on 6 music by this time, and their popularity rising.
They’ve completed the deal now, and for me the 1st and the last albums are the best, the middle ones are a bit meh, and obviously churned out to satisfy the record company.
It’s amazing to see how they’ve progressed, personally I thought The Murder Capital, also from Dublin, and starting out around the same time, were better, but I guess it’s all about being in the right place at the right time!
They are a great bunch though, and I’m glad they’ve “made it”, they recently played at Cardiff Castle, and their manager contacted me to invite me to the show, and remembered the gig across the street, just over 7 years ago.

Great story I like all of their albums as they didn't stay in one place, but have they got another one in them? It would be remarkable if they came up with 5th to rival their previous work.

[G rangetown Blue]

Great story I like all of their albums as they didn't stay in one place, but have they got another one in them? It would be remarkable if they came up with 5th to rival their previous work.

Hopefully, there are no time restraints on them, so hopefully there’s more to come……they have achieved an awful lot in just 8 years.

[NYCBlue]

It's two advances which seems to be the going rate these days, one for an EP and a larger one for a followup album. The booking agents are a separate deal. It's not a massive amount though, and I'd imagine it's pretty standard with the labels spreading their cash around in the hope of landing a big fish. The obvious exception would be if a band turned up fully formed with a pile of existing material.

It will probably all end in tears for most new artists these days, and they'll be working in Tesco by the time they reach their mid-20's, but I suppose it's a bit of fun and a good life experience. It took bands like Fontaines D.C. 4 albums to get where they are now money wise, while plenty of other talented people are still struggling along, and going back to Cameron Winter he would have been one of them if he hadn't taken matters into his own hands.

Are they being advanced the money? Or is the label just paying for studio time? Fancy studios are a BIG waste of money these days. They should take the money and buy equipment and a van. Setting up a limited company is not a bad idea either.

[HiVis]

One review on one website can get you an an agent and an audience. Again, I have seen it happen.

Yes it does, but its not the norm, which is the point richard. is making.

[HiVis]

Are they being advanced the money? Or is the label just paying for studio time? Fancy studios are a BIG waste of money these days. They should take the money and buy equipment and a van.

with all due respect a good producer is worth their weight in gold, and you ain't getting that in your bedroom when you have no idea how to properly utilise the equipment you have at your disposal.

John Leckie springs to mind, that man was a miracle worker.

[Wales-Bales]

Are they being advanced the money? Or is the label just paying for studio time? Fancy studios are a BIG waste of money these days. They should take the money and buy equipment and a van. Setting up a limited company is not a bad idea either.

Good question, and a subtle difference. I don't know the answer, but I suspect the record company wouldn't want them spending the money in the pub! LLC already sorted, these Zoomer kids of today are really switched on.

[Wales-Bales]

with all due respect a good producer is worth their weight in gold, and you ain't getting that in your bedroom when you have no idea how to properly utilise the equipment you have at your disposal.

John Leckie springs to mind, that man was a miracle worker.

I tend to agree with this. It's an industry and certain professional standards have to be met. Being on a label also gives musicians more exposure, including media coverage, eligibility for award nominations, and access to festival gigs, etc., but it's a double edged sword when you make a deal with the devil. However, there will always be weirdos like Cameron Winter who think the rules don't apply to them I mean who the f**k makes a video like this

[Tuerto]

I tend to agree with this. It's an industry and certain professional standards have to be met. Being on a label also gives musicians more exposure, including media coverage, eligibility for award nominations, and access to festival gigs, etc., but it's a double edged sword when you make a deal with the devil. However, there will always be weirdos like Cameron Winter who think the rules don't apply to them I mean who the f**k makes a video like this

Do Pigeons buy Merch or download music?

[Wales-Bales]

Do Pigeons buy Merch or download music?

It's almost as if they are playing with us ...

On the Verge of Rock Stardom

Is Cameron Winter ready for the spotlight? He better be.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/05/s...ter-geese.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20250427...ter-geese.html

[The Lone Gunman]

They honoured their commitment, and eventually played at The Moon, probably the most people I’ve ever seen in there….the album was getting a lot of airplay on 6 music by this time, and their popularity rising.

Your memory's playing tricks on you there, GB. The gig at the Moon was in December 2018. The album wasn't released until four months later.

They were definitely a 'buzz' band by that stage, though. I remember a couple of mates being at the Moon Club gig who don't normally show up for shows in small venues, as Boys in a Better Land had been getting a lot airplay. Coincidentally, I was looking at some photos from that period a few weeks ago and I'm pretty sure you're in a couple I took at that show.

I first saw Fontaines supporting Shame at Bristol's SWX about a month before the Moon Club gig. We met Grian afterwards, nice guy. I wasn't impressed by their debut album, loved the second, thought the third was terrible and really liked the fourth.

[HiVis]

If 6 music start to champion you, then you’re made. Idles and Fontaines DC are recent examples, both were playing small venues (e.g. Spillers record store and The Moon club in Cardiff) until Steve Lamacq latched on to them.

not quite. 6Music is predominantly aimed at a certain market and certain demographic, and you're not going to get much in the way of R&B (as an example) on there, certainly not with Steve Lamacq

6M is definitely a good way to get noticed. The Yaang and Damefrisor feature heavily on my playlist, and that's down to Steve Lamacq

[Wales-Bales]

I wasn't impressed by their debut album, loved the second, thought the third was terrible and really liked the fourth.

It's got one of my favourite FDC tracks on it, and the best two-chord song in my music collection.

[NYCBlue]

with all due respect a good producer is worth their weight in gold, and you ain't getting that in your bedroom when you have no idea how to properly utilise the equipment you have at your disposal.

John Leckie springs to mind, that man was a miracle worker.

Again, I never said anything about bedrooms. And you're right about about a good producer, if it's the right producer. Some producer's no matter how good they are just don't understand what bands are trying to do.

[G rangetown Blue]

Your memory's playing tricks on you there, GB. The gig at the Moon was in December 2018. The album wasn't released until four months later.

They were definitely a 'buzz' band by that stage, though. I remember a couple of mates being at the Moon Club gig who don't normally show up for shows in small venues, as Boys in a Better Land had been getting a lot airplay. Coincidentally, I was looking at some photos from that period a few weeks ago and I'm pretty sure you're in a couple I took at that show.

I first saw Fontaines supporting Shame at Bristol's SWX about a month before the Moon Club gig. We met Grian afterwards, nice guy. I wasn't impressed by their debut album, loved the second, thought the third was terrible and really liked the fourth.

I think they were recording tracks for the album, it then got mixed and subsequently released. You’re probably right about me getting dates mixed up though!
Send the pictures over mate :)