Charlie Kirk

[JamesWales]

JamesWales: You told us all in this very thread that you agreed with him. Tell us what you agreed with.

Well, I didn't say that. I said I agree with some things, and disagree with other things, but I appreciate you are a black and white kinda person. I was also making the point that it's less about what's being said; I admired the way he went around to campuses, engaged in a civil manner, took questions, asked questions, challenged positions, debated, probed etc. He did also do the kind of online solo polemics which I am absolutely not a fan of and are far too common online IMO.

So that is essentially what I said. But as you asked - and I paraphrase here - but I think he is right that a lot of identity politics, race politics of the last 20 years or so are dividing us more than uniting. I think he is right that there is a lack of critical thought and even the principle of challenging debates is refreshing. I think he is right that nation states matter and have the ability to unite and where they fail people will form themselves into other, less cohesive groups, often based around race. I think he's right that the far-left is dangerous. I think he is right to defend some western, liberal values. I think he's right to identify that defending borders is important and detaining violent criminals is important.

I disagree with him on his adherence to religion (but that is a personal matter), his stance on abortion, his support for guns, his overly nationalist approach and he is generally too 'right' on many things, including an inability to recognise that his side can also be very divisive.

So yeah, I agree on some things, disagree on others. I generally like the way he engaged with people, especially what he was doing two days ago in Utah.

Oh, and I just realised I have written about him in the present tense. My mistake. Past tense now, as his life is over. Shot dead by someone who couldn't tolerate different opinions.

[Dorcus]

I was being rather playful with my question about the example of the age of consent but your counter-question highlights my point in a way, I believe i.e. regarding where we all choose to draw the line. Anyway, don't detain yourself too much on this hypothetical scenario on a Friday evening

Thanks TBG, it's playing havoc with my Oktoberfest festivities 😂. I guess you're posting from Tristan Da Cunha maybe or Easter Island? But I guess my last sentence on the previous post is unchallengeable no?

[Dorcus]

Well, I didn't say that. I said I agree with some things, and disagree with other things, but I appreciate you are a black and white kinda person. I was also making the point that it's less about what's being said; I admired the way he went around to campuses, engaged in a civil manner, took questions, asked questions, challenged positions, debated, probed etc. He did also do the kind of online solo polemics which I am absolutely not a fan of and are far too common online IMO.

So that is essentially what I said. But as you asked - and I paraphrase here - but I think he is right that a lot of identity politics, race politics of the last 20 years or so are dividing us more than uniting. I think he is right that there is a lack of critical thought and even the principle of challenging debates is refreshing. I think he is right that nation states matter and have the ability to unite and where they fail people will form themselves into other, less cohesive groups, often based around race. I think he's right that the far-left is dangerous. I think he is right to defend some western, liberal values. I think he's right to identify that defending borders is important and detaining violent criminals is important.

I disagree with him on his adherence to religion (but that is a personal matter), his stance on abortion, his support for guns, his overly nationalist approach and he is generally too 'right' on many things, including an inability to recognise that his side can also be very divisive.

So yeah, I agree on some things, disagree on others. I generally like the way he engaged with people, especially what he was doing two days ago in Utah.

Oh, and I just realised I have written about him in the present tense. My mistake. Past tense now, as his life is over. Shot dead by someone who couldn't tolerate different opinions.

The list of people assassinated by somebody who couldn't tolerate their different opinions is a very long one and goes back a long time.

Martin Luther King, John F Kennedy, Osama Bin Laden, Joan of Arc, Jesus Christ, John Lennon, Charles I, Thomas Becket, countless poor souls from Chile and Argentina who were "disappeared" from planes during the rule of military dictatorships........

...these are just a random sample of people who have lost their lives on the whim and diktat of others. I doubt any of us condone it but unfortunately it's a stubbornly difficult human trait to eradicate.

.

[Jordi Culé]

The list of people assassinated by somebody who couldn't tolerate their different opinions is a very long one and goes back a long time.

Martin Luther King, John F Kennedy, Osama Bin Laden, Joan of Arc, Jesus Christ, John Lennon, Charles I, Thomas Becket, countless poor souls from Chile and Argentina who were "disappeared" from planes during the rule of military dictatorships........

...these are just a random sample of people who have lost their lives on the whim and diktat of others. I doubt any of us condone it but unfortunately it's a stubbornly difficult human trait to eradicate.

.

Jo Cox anyone?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Thanks TBG, it's playing havoc with my Oktoberfest festivities ��. I guess you're posting from Tristan Da Cunha maybe or Easter Island? But I guess my last sentence on the previous post is unchallengeable no?

No, I landed back in Blighty two days ago - and to grey skies, miserbale rain and cloying dampness. I must change my incontinence wear!

[Dorcus]

Jo Cox anyone?

How on Earth could I have missed her 🫣

[Dorcus]

No, I landed back in Blighty two days ago - and to grey skies, miserbale rain and cloying dampness. I must change my incontinence wear!

😂 I get the same issue after a session on Stella, a few shots and a vindaloo to finish 😱

[jon1959]

The Republican Governor of Utah has shown some sanity and leadership in the aftermath of this murder.

In contrast Donald Trump has once again shown himself to be a sick, poisonous piece of shit.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Well, I didn't say that. I said I agree with some things, and disagree with other things, but I appreciate you are a black and white kinda person. I was also making the point that it's less about what's being said; I admired the way he went around to campuses, engaged in a civil manner, took questions, asked questions, challenged positions, debated, probed etc. He did also do the kind of online solo polemics which I am absolutely not a fan of and are far too common online IMO.

So that is essentially what I said. But as you asked - and I paraphrase here - but I think he is right that a lot of identity politics, race politics of the last 20 years or so are dividing us more than uniting. I think he is right that there is a lack of critical thought and even the principle of challenging debates is refreshing. I think he is right that nation states matter and have the ability to unite and where they fail people will form themselves into other, less cohesive groups, often based around race. I think he's right that the far-left is dangerous. I think he is right to defend some western, liberal values. I think he's right to identify that defending borders is important and detaining violent criminals is important.

I disagree with him on his adherence to religion (but that is a personal matter), his stance on abortion, his support for guns, his overly nationalist approach and he is generally too 'right' on many things, including an inability to recognise that his side can also be very divisive.

So yeah, I agree on some things, disagree on others. I generally like the way he engaged with people, especially what he was doing two days ago in Utah.

Oh, and I just realised I have written about him in the present tense. My mistake. Past tense now, as his life is over. Shot dead by someone who couldn't tolerate different opinions.

He and you might think the left are dangerous .....but the right are far more dangerous

They are responsible for far more political violence than the left in America and always have been

The facts are out there and a report from 2022 provided the evidence

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The Republican Governor of Utah has shown some sanity and leadership in the aftermath of this murder.

In contrast Donald Trump has once again shown himself to be a sick, poisonous piece of shit.

Hes such a baseless twat for saying this murder was typical of the left

An appalling smear and completely untrue

What a shameless way for him in his position to behave

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The Republican Governor of Utah has shown some sanity and leadership in the aftermath of this murder.

In contrast Donald Trump has once again shown himself to be a sick, poisonous piece of shit.

Hes such a baseless twat for saying this murder was typical of the left

An appalling smear and completely untrue

What a shameless way for him in his position to behave

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Well, I didn't say that. I said I agree with some things, and disagree with other things, but I appreciate you are a black and white kinda person. I was also making the point that it's less about what's being said; I admired the way he went around to campuses, engaged in a civil manner, took questions, asked questions, challenged positions, debated, probed etc. He did also do the kind of online solo polemics which I am absolutely not a fan of and are far too common online IMO.

So that is essentially what I said. But as you asked - and I paraphrase here - but I think he is right that a lot of identity politics, race politics of the last 20 years or so are dividing us more than uniting. I think he is right that there is a lack of critical thought and even the principle of challenging debates is refreshing. I think he is right that nation states matter and have the ability to unite and where they fail people will form themselves into other, less cohesive groups, often based around race. I think he's right that the far-left is dangerous. I think he is right to defend some western, liberal values. I think he's right to identify that defending borders is important and detaining violent criminals is important.

I disagree with him on his adherence to religion (but that is a personal matter), his stance on abortion, his support for guns, his overly nationalist approach and he is generally too 'right' on many things, including an inability to recognise that his side can also be very divisive.

So yeah, I agree on some things, disagree on others. I generally like the way he engaged with people, especially what he was doing two days ago in Utah.

Oh, and I just realised I have written about him in the present tense. My mistake. Past tense now, as his life is over. Shot dead by someone who couldn't tolerate different opinions.

What do you think about this opinion then ?

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2122593119

[JamesWales]

How on Earth could I have missed her 🫣

She would seem a more obvious example than Osama Bin Laden tbh!

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2122593119

The right are clearly the source of most political violence

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I despair at what has become of the left.
It is absolutely tragic!

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2122593119

Then we must clearly despair even more at the right

[chrisp_1927]

Some interesting speculation that this freak may be from the far right,:

https://www.thecanary.co/trending/20...ump-supporter/

https://www.newsweek.com/groyper-cha...uentes-2129114

[JamesWales]

What do you think about this opinion then ?

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2122593119

What do I think of it? I think there are extremists across the political spectrum.

This EU study states far higher incidents of left-wing terrorism than right-wing. Who cares though? The problem is extremism and intolerance and that's why talking is important and trying get dialogue instead of violence.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/i...facts-figures/

[Jordi Culé]

How on Earth could I have missed her 🫣

Not a dig at you butt.

As you said its all been seen before.

Everyone in their right mind would condemn political violence and murder but it does seem some will try ans anoint Kirk a modern day saint as it suits their political agenda.

In the USA now you'd suggest a decent leader of the country would try and bring some unity instead of further polarising groups. Admittedly it could be suggested he himself has upped the political violence in the USA with events a few years ago.

As for Charlie Kirk himself, I thought he talked like a massive cuunt. Whether or not they were his real opinions or just a massive grift he was a cuunt?

Some on here would be holding a candle light vigil if Yaxley Lennon ever receives another dig.

[Wash DC Blue]

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2122593119

Then we must clearly despair even more at the right

You know what Mate.
I despair at the State of politics in general.
Not just the politicians that we have had over the last 10 years or so…but the absolute vicious polarization that we now see.
Point Scoring at any given opportunity and teeth bared to anybody who dares disagree.
The Right do the same, but I honestly think that the modern day left are more fervent in their intense hatred.
This is just my opinion and I wish that it wasn’t.
Of course, I might have been brainwashed or radicalized online, have cognitive bias and live in online echo chamber. I do try to see things from different sides and sources though.

It’s my opinion that the Left, left me.
It started around 2014 for me, escalated in 2016, put on the afterburners in 2017 and have kept heading the same direction ever since.

The left that I knew, were kind, compassionate, non discriminatory, progressive but balanced.
I felt like I was on the side of good.

Now I firmly believe that The Left have lost their ****ing minds after fully embracing post modernism and identity politics.

Now, I think that they are radical, oppressive, totalitarian, puritanical ideologues.
I don’t think that the left has a love of nations anymore. Maybe they have been true internationalists when I was younger, but to me…they were always on the fringes.
Now, it seems that there is a dislike of country and disdain for those who still like the country and culture that they grew up in.
They certainly do not represent the working class anymore in my opinion.
It says something when “The Red Wall” are drifting towards an obvious charlatan and chancer in Farage in their droves.
Moderate Labour voters drifting towards a right leaning party in their droves. It’s nuts to think that this would happen even as recently as 2010.

Obviously Trump and Brexit are HUGE factors which really deepened the chasm…

Again, just my opinion.
I still believe in Trade Unions, The NHS, a Benefit System to help those that need it, Gay Marriage and adoption, abortion, social equality and decriminalization of drugs.
I still dislike Corporate Greed, The US Healthcare/Insurance system.

I’ve said it before…I think I belong in the category of Blue Labour…or a Hybrid of Ralph Nader/Ross Perot over here.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

What do I think of it? I think there are extremists across the political spectrum.

This EU study states far higher incidents of left-wing terrorism than right-wing. Who cares though? The problem is extremism and intolerance and that's why talking is important and trying get dialogue instead of violence.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/i...facts-figures/

Thats Europe

We are talking about the states

Where tonight Dave Rubin , another right wing libertarian and close friend of
the guy assassinated incredible stated again that the left were more dangerous than the right .....clearly nonsense although you are also at it ....and that the uk would have less political violence if people had the right to bear arms and defend themselves

It certainly didn't work for his friend ! Shot dead by a high powered rifle from 150 yards away

The guy shot who said the left was very dangerous and that you in your statement said you agreed with was wrong and so were you as the article I provided for you clearly showed

If you want to bring Europe into it then save that for a debate on violence by political groups in Europe

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

What do I think of it? I think there are extremists across the political spectrum.

This EU study states far higher incidents of left-wing terrorism than right-wing. Who cares though? The problem is extremism and intolerance and that's why talking is important and trying get dialogue instead of violence.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/i...facts-figures/

Thats Europe

We are talking about the states

Where tonight Dave Rubin , another right wing libertarian and close friend of
the guy assassinated incredible stated again that the left were more dangerous than the right .....clearly nonsense although you are also at it ....and that the uk would have less political violence if people had the right to bear arms and defend themselves

It certainly didn't work for his friend ! Shot dead by a high powered rifle from 150 yards away

The guy shot who said the left was very dangerous and that you in your statement said you agreed with was wrong and so were you as the article I provided for you clearly showed

If you want to bring Europe into it then save that for a debate on violence by political groups in Europe

[JamesWales]

Thats Europe

We are talking about the states

Where tonight Dave Rubin , another right wing libertarian and close friend of
the guy assassinated incredible stated again that the left were more dangerous than the right .....clearly nonsense although you are also at it ....and that the uk would have less political violence if people had the right to bear arms and defend themselves

It certainly didn't work for his friend ! Shot dead by a high powered rifle from 150 yards away

The guy shot who said the left was very dangerous and that you in your statement said you agreed with was wrong and so were you as the article I provided for you clearly showed

If you want to bring Europe into it then save that for a debate on violence by political groups in Europe

Please, stop misquoting me and then purposefully misrepresenting me.

When asked earlier what views of his I agreed with, alongside a list of things I disagreed with, I said that Charlie Kirk was right to point out that the far-left is dangerous. They are. I also think the far-right is dangerous. They are.

This isn't hard stuff to comprehend, so I don't know why you complicate it tbh.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

What do I think of it? I think there are extremists across the political spectrum.

This EU study states far higher incidents of left-wing terrorism than right-wing. Who cares though? The problem is extremism and intolerance and that's why talking is important and trying get dialogue instead of violence.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/i...facts-figures/

You didn't say that though did you ?

You said the guy assassinated thought the left was very dangerous and you agreed with him

Now if you had said it was tragic he was shot but political violence wasn't just a left wing issue that would have been nuanced

But you didn't

[JamesWales]

You didn't say that though did you ?

You said the guy assassinated thought the left was very dangerous and you agreed with him

Now if you had said it was tragic he was shot but political violence wasn't just a left wing issue that would have been nuanced

But you didn't

Again, you are misquoting me. I said I agree with him that the far-left is dangerous. Christ alive, if the last 48 hours haven't taught you that, then nothing will.

I also said the far-right is dangerous. Because it is.

That's what I said. And frankly, that's the truth.

And what definitely is true is that I'm off to bed, and will take a break from it all for the weekend, so have a good one , Sludge 👍

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Again, you are misquoting me. I said I agree with him that the far-left is dangerous. Christ alive, if the last 48 hours haven't taught you that, then nothing will.

I also said the far-right is dangerous. Because it is.

That's what I said. And frankly, that's the truth.

And what definitely is true is that I'm off to bed, and will take a break from it all for the weekend, so have a good one , Sludge 👍

Cobblers

2 nil city