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I am sure we all hope that there are no demonstrations celebrating the October 7 massacre today.
A forlorn hope of course.
Jon and Delmbox and others should note that this in no way expresses support for the appalling genocide in Gaza.
Of course I acknowledge the awful atrocities which were committed 2 years ago. That was murder and slaughter of the innocents. It was barbaric and unconscionable. However, that was 2 years ago and Hamas is not murdering people now, Israel is. Also, as dreadful as the events were 2 years ago it's worth remembering Israel has slaughtered 50 times more innocent people than Hamas did...and still counting! Surely, enough is enough?Originally Posted by stevo
I have never suggested you support the genocide in Gaza. But I am not convinced by your assertion that the commission report that concluded Israel is guilty of genocide is not the official position of the UN. I am no legal expert, and I accepted that the ICJ court case brought by South Africa is ongoing, but as far as I can see the UN (which published the commission report) agrees with its' findings.
The following is from the BBC report on 26 September
'The UN says it cannot make a legal determination as to whether a situation constitutes genocide under international law. It says a situation is referred to as genocide only after a competent national or international court has declared it as such.
When asked by journalists on Tuesday if he would consider using the word genocide to describe Israel's actions in Gaza, UN human rights chief Volker Türk said: "It's for the court to decide whether it's genocide or not, and we see the evidence mounting." '
I am having problems actually linking the article but I have seen similar from other reputable sources
I think it is Volker Turk,'s division who commissioned the report.
Another quote from the BBC report
'The commission said its latest report was "the strongest and most authoritative UN finding to date" on the war. However, it does not officially speak for the UN.'
Convinced yet,?
More convinced - thanks.
But note the highlighted words above from your quote. 'Genocide' is a finding of the UN - which may be a slightly different thing from whether 'genocide under international law' has been established by the appropriate legal body.
Either way, it is genocide - as every reputable human rights organisation (including Israeli ones) has already determined.
Big difference being, Germany needed to be physically stopped from wiping out a whole race, where as Hamas could stop the attacks over night, by accepting the peace process on the table, and exchanging hostages.
They did that earlier in the year - and Netanyahu broke the ceasefire.
But however you want to personally define genocide - this is it in Gaza! No need to wait for the ICJ to drag its hearing on to 2027!
Israel rightly want the hostages that Hamas are retaining, released. Why are Hamas unwilling to do this? Have most of them already been murdered? If Hamas hadn’t launched their attack 2 yrs ago, then the 2 regions wouldn’t be fighting right now.
Are the majority of Palestinians still happy to be represented and ruled by Hamas?
They basically invited this onslaught onto their own people.
You must be joking or nuts
The Israelis have been treating the Palestinians like crap since 1948
If a load of Bristol City fans invaded Cardiff and made everyone cram into the west of Cardiff and kept everything else , expanding the state of wurzel land year in year out then I think many cardiffians would either support a hamas sort of anti Bristol organisation to attack the invaders
I would join them
On the second anniversary of the Hamas attack.
https://x.com/lbc/status/1975610824715604206?s=46
Unbelievable.
Israel have been acting like ****s for a long time with the land grabs and the continued action is as despicable as those attacks that occurred 2 years ago today.
However, to me there is history that shows their neighbors wouldn’t want them there no matter what they did or whatever historical right they had (which seems to vary a lot depending on who you ask).
If Hamas were to release the hostages and surrender, this shit could at least simmer down and stop the bloodshed.
Serious question to those more knowledgeable than I (which is probably most people on this thread) about the situation…
Do you think that Israel would have killed so many civilians if Hamas weren’t mingled amongst said civilians or hiding in hospitals?
Or is the notion that they are hiding in hospitals, schools etc, a bunch of bollocks?
You and your CCMB massive put someone into power who has increased funding to the regime. Sit down and shut the **** up.
Fair enough, I absolutely think that with tens of thousands dead, a reply of yes but it's not technically a genocide is bizarre and I'm not sure why you felt the need to post it
I think the protests on the night of the attack, the chants of "globalise the intifada", "from the river to the sea.." and the numerous interviews with protesters available online all show that there is a very serious radicalized element within these marches that is deeply antisemitic. I doubt it's a majority, but I'd suggest it's a large proportion.
What has struck me since this all began is the lack of calls for peace, and more the calls of support for one side. I went on three anti war marches for the Iraq war. Iraqi flags weren't waved. No one was supporting Iraq like they are Palestine, and I think that's a key issue. People have taken a side, probably partly inspired by how much we were encouraged to do so in the Ukraine war.
Its unsavoury though, and in my opinion if anything, it's prolonged the war. No doubt Hamas have viewed the marches across the west as support for their cause and discouraged an earlier end to the war.
Let's hope the current negotiations succeed. Funnily enough, you hear little about that from protesters.
Just two points on that load of nonsense:
1. I have been on 14 of the national Palestine marches and joined the chants of 'From the river to the sea...' every time. It is a 50 year old chant/demand reclaimed from Bibi Netanyahu who used it to describe his plans for a Greater Israel based on the expulsion (ethnic cleansing) of Palestinians. His map of Israel without any Palestinian territories that he waved around at the UN General Assembly put it back centre stage. It is a chant calling for peace and justice in Palestinian between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea. That is why Quakers, Lib Dems and anti Zionist Jews are also happy to chant it. Jewish platform speakers at the end of the marches regularly start or finish their words with 'From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free'.
2. Every single march has has 'Ceasefire Now' as a major demand - in chants, on placards, on banners and as a focus for the platform speeches. The calls for peace are deafening. As someone who claims to have been on three marches in London 20 years ago (why is that relevant?) and seems to get the rest of your opinions from the Daily Mail, your wilful misrepresentation of the Palestine solidarity marches is not surprising but it is depressing.
Just putting the mirror up for a second James, you are the first to be unhappy with people on here when they take something/a phrase/chant someone has said and layer on meaning that may or may not be the way they feel, for instance, someone protesting migration saying 'Migrants Out' could mean they are racist or maybe it doesn't and you are very keen to be on the forgiving side in those discussions. I remember clearly during the riots you were pretty consistently on the fence about their intentions/motivations, but with pro-palestine protestors, if they join a chant that you think crosses a line, they are anti-semites.
I think part of the reason why pro-palestine protesters aren't vocalising support for the negotiations is that they have seen it all before, they don't trust Netenyahu and they don't trust Trump. I would say those are all positions/feelings that make quite a lot of sense.
When have I defended someone chanting "migrants out"? I would criticize someone labelling someone racist just for wanting lower immigration, of course but thats a different example.
And I think it's absolutely fair to criticise people chanting about the end of the only Jewish state on the day of a synagogue attack because I think that is a sign and slogan of radicalized people, and takes us much farther from peace at the same time.
That may be why they are not so enthusiastic. But they also rightly talk about the loss of lives and a form of peace achieves that.
I am not going to claim to know much about it but Israel's standard line makes no sense in the context of the wider conflict, they have managed to do highly targeted strikes in situations where they need to tread carefully (in other countries) but when it comes to Gaza its a pile of rubble.
The worst thing that could happen here is Hamas engages, releases the remaining hostages and then Israel just gets back at it bombing the **** out of Gaza. There is a definite non-zero chance that this happens, and it not happening is almost completely reliant on Trump making the call to stop it.
I wasn't citing a specific example but there is a theme of fence sitting in a lot of what you post, this one seemed more absolute.
Yeah it's absolutely right to criticise it if you want, that's very different to de-legitimising the protestors as anti-semitic which many people in the media and some on here have sought to do.
Was it 'peace' before October 7th? It might have felt pretty peaceful for Israelis.. If you have spent decades protesting what Israel has been doing in Gaza and the West Bank, you are hardly going to be jumping for joy at going back a few years.
It being "unsavoury" is entirely your own personal view though. Thankfully not everyone agrees.
Oh I am so sorry I posted factual information. I was not saying in my view it is not technically a genocide. I was pointing out that the United Nations position is not clear cut. Nothing bizarre about that. Puzzled why you think that.
This is the second time you have put words in my mouth. Please stop doing it
Next time I will ask your permission
Often we are big enough, old enough and ugly enough to see for ourselves and know right from wrong without political institutions making up our minds for us. If it looks like a duck, it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck then it's probably a duck
True. But not everyone disagrees either.
Responded quickly before - further point.. You have moved the goalposts there a tad, I wasn't really saying you 'defended them' but I think based on previous threads that you would respond negatively to someone calling them all racist. Whereas in this thread, you are without context happy to say a large proportion of pro-palestine protestors are 'deeply anti-Semitic'.
The crux of the debate around whether it was insensitive to protest is that the IHRA definition of Anti-Semitism is a contradictory to the government/others position on the validity of the protests in the aftermath of the terrorist attack. Simultaneously..
IHRA - British Jews shouldn't be associated/held responsible for the actions of Israel = complete separation, good they aren't responsible, they are British, not the Israel government.
Terrorist event kills two British Jews, 'it is insensitive to protest against Israel in the aftermath' = not separated, intrinsically linked to such a great extent that this will feel like an attack on them.
Make it make sense.
You're right, there's always some wherever you are
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