No U turn on essential goods ban

[lisvaneblue]

I don't see it at all. You mentioned competition law and then, when asked what specific law, you mentioned Article 82/83 of EU competition law.

I looked at them and couldn't find anything relevant other than something that Drakeford had actively done to meet one of those laws.

You've had a few opportunities to point out which one(s) in particular he's broken but haven't been forthcoming with a response.

I think it's fair to say that you have an opinion about this and you're going to stick with it... even though it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, I think.

That's fine. You asked my views I gave it to you. Maybe worth adding that I spent much of my working life heading up the commercial side of a large pharmaceutical business and competition law and how to utilise and interpret it was a significant part of the job.

[cyril evans awaydays]

That's fine. You asked my views I gave it to you. Maybe worth adding that I spent much of my working life heading up the commercial side of a large pharmaceutical business and competition law and how to utilise and interpret it was a significant part of the job.

And there was me wondering why you thought the Senedd was a dominant entity when these are undertakings that achieve a dominant market position.

Undertakings are defined as " any natural or legal person engaged in economic activity, regardless of its legal
status and the way in which it is financed. It includes companies, partnerships, firms, businesses, individuals operating as sole traders, agricultural cooperatives, associations of undertakings (e.g. trade associations), non-profit making organisations and (in some circumstances) public entities that offer goods or services on a given market.

With your extensive knowledge of commercial law perhaps you could explain how the Senedd meets the definition of an undertaking that has become a dominant entity?

[lisvaneblue]

And there was me wondering why you thought the Senedd was a dominant entity when these are undertakings that achieve a dominant market position.

Undertakings are defined as " any natural or legal person engaged in economic activity, regardless of its legal
status and the way in which it is financed. It includes companies, partnerships, firms, businesses, individuals operating as sole traders, agricultural cooperatives, associations of undertakings (e.g. trade associations), non-profit making organisations and (in some circumstances) public entities that offer goods or services on a given market.

With your extensive knowledge of commercial law perhaps you could explain how the Senedd meets the definition of an undertaking that has become a dominant entity?

The definition is ' an entity that has economic activity' and includes the categories you mentioned. And dominance is defined at a very low% of a market.

The Wales government participates in quite a lot of commercials contracts and of course has to abide by Competition Law

[cyril evans awaydays]

The definition is ' an entity that has economic activity' and includes the categories you mentioned. And dominance is defined at a very low% of a market.

So not the Senedd then that has zero % of the non-essential goods market?

[lisvaneblue]

So not the Senedd then that has zero % of the non-essential goods market?

Not sure what you are on about with zero %, but the Senedd certainly influenced 5% of the UK supermarket market by banning a range of what they say are non essential goods throughout supermarkets in Wales. And it turns out they have no authority to do this for economic reasons ie they say to be fair to/ to ensure a level field/ to level things out for those non essential shops they instructed to close.
So now they say it is for public health reasons but offer no rational why they want to do this now when it wasn’t necessary in their first lockdown.
They met with supermarket representatives today who probably told them they were acting outside their remit and tonight I was pleased to hear the spokesperson for the Wales retail consortia say that the likely outcome will be to open all aisles to customers whilst discouraging them from seeking non essential goods.
Some face saving common sense at last

[lisvaneblue]

And there was me wondering why you thought the Senedd was a dominant entity when these are undertakings that achieve a dominant market position.

Undertakings are defined as " any natural or legal person engaged in economic activity, regardless of its legal
status and the way in which it is financed. It includes companies, partnerships, firms, businesses, individuals operating as sole traders, agricultural cooperatives, associations of undertakings (e.g. trade associations), non-profit making organisations and (in some circumstances) public entities that offer goods or services on a given market.

With your extensive knowledge of commercial law perhaps you could explain how the Senedd meets the definition of an undertaking that has become a dominant entity?

It’s to do with their influence on the market, not necessarily the market share an entity holds.Whilst each case can be different depending on market size etc it’s not unusual to be deemed dominant with a 5% share,
When you look at what the Senedd did unlawfully for commercial reasons was to trim the range of goods available to the general public throughout all supermarkets in Wales, at a time when the opportunities for the welsh public to travel to outlets that had a full range of goods on sale were non existent.

[cyril evans awaydays]

It’s to do with their influence on the market, not necessarily the market share an entity holds.Whilst each case can be different depending on market size etc it’s not unusual to be deemed dominant with a 5% share,
When you look at what the Senedd did unlawfully for commercial reasons was to trim the range of goods available to the general public throughout all supermarkets in Wales, at a time when the opportunities for the welsh public to travel to outlets that had a full range of goods on sale were non existent.

Obviously mixing up the Senedd, a Competent authority with a commercial undertaking that could have dominant influence on a market seems reasonably plain to most folks, just not to the Commercial expert that has spent most of his life apparently understanding the different public/private responsibilities.

[lisvaneblue]

Obviously mixing up the Senedd, a Competent authority with a commercial undertaking that could have dominant influence on a market seems reasonably plain to most folks, just not to the Commercial expert that has spent most of his life apparently understanding the different public/private responsibilities.

Yes I know what the Senedd is thank you and I explained that it recently acted unlawfully by taking a position outside of it's areas of responsibility. When it comes to the EU / UK Laws on Competition I do know the rules quite well and not just from a google search. As a Competent authority it is not above the law, and competition law covers any entity that has economic activity.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Yes I know what the Senedd is thank you and I explained that it recently acted unlawfully by taking a position outside of it's areas of responsibility. When it comes to the EU / UK Laws on Competition I do know the rules quite well and not just from a google search. As a Competent authority it is not above the law, and competition law covers any entity that has economic activity.

Looks like we need to do this in baby steps.

The Senedd legislated for these restrictions and they are primary law in Wales. The relevant law is here.

https://gov.wales/sites/default/file...tions-2020.pdf

Individuals, organisations and commercial undertakings have the right to challenge that law via Judicial Review. In doing so they will seek to prove that the measures are legally defective and disproportionate. They are challenging the law made by the competent authority which as I say again is involved in zero activity in the market sectors in question that would make it a dominant entity in that sector.

[lisvaneblue]

Looks like we need to do this in baby steps.

The Senedd legislated for these restrictions and they are primary law in Wales. The relevant law is here.

https://gov.wales/sites/default/file...tions-2020.pdf

Individuals, organisations and commercial undertakings have the right to challenge that law via Judicial Review. In doing so they will seek to prove that the measures are legally defective and disproportionate. They are challenging the law made by the competent authority which as I say again is involved in zero activity in the market sectors in question that would make it a dominant entity in that sector.

you are way off target. The Senedd position and public health law fine, essential and non essential lists for public health reasons fine. But then it jumps big time into the Commercial area by extending its non essential list ( being kind because no list exists) to essential shops taking choice away from the public...why? To defend the commercial interests of those private businesses which they instructed to close, despite the fact that there are other financial compensation schemes in place.
They have already admitted that they were wrong and acted outside of the legislation ( which kindly highlighted above)
There is no doubt at all that they have acted in an anti- competitive way and are now busy correcting things by legislating the non essential list in essential shops for public health reasons, which they should have done in the first place.
The meeting with the retail sector yesterday would have irritated a few sores and I predict there will be announcement later today softening the current stance.
Finally, just so you too are able to learn to take first steps in the area, the Senedd has legitimate powers and in this specific case we are talking public health, so powerful that it could if it wanted close all retail establishments for public health reasons. It’s in a legitimate dominant position. When it starts interfering within the commercial area unlawfully it’s abusing thar dominant position in a market place. As said previously this could impact on 5% of Uk supermarkets, or in a more specific market it impacted on 100% of supermarkets in Wales. It is a complex area so I appreciate the fact that you are finding it difficult to understand