Starmer's education speech - a critical error & snobbery

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Re: Starmer's education speech - a critical error & snobbery

Is this Sir Keir's version of the 'Ed' Stone ?
That some intern thought up - that everybody else laughed at.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...tion-limestone
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Pledge 4 should have a No at the start of the sentence

That would be the tory pledges wouldn't it ?

As despite telling all the thick goons who voted you in for 13 years that immigration would be dealt with ......your lot have crapped on your own troops !

If it was an issue for your voters .......its even more of a one now

[pipster]

Re: Starmer's education speech - a critical error & snobbery

That would be the tory pledges wouldn't it ?

As despite telling all the thick goons who voted you in for 13 years that immigration would be dealt with ......your lot have crapped on your own troops !

If it was an issue for your voters .......its even more of a one now

You were asked on here last week - if you were PM how you would stop the small boats problem - you had no answer, other than waffle and name calling.

You were then asked if you gave everyone who applied, a job and somewhere to live, school etc etc - then what would you do when you have the same problem a year later (presuming that you still hadn't fixed the small boats problem) - no meaningful response.

It was never a problem for Blair as he wanted as many to come in as possible. But for everyone else since - it's been impossible to stop - Starmer would be no different.

ps my voting record - Foot (my dad virtually forced me to), Kinnock, Blair, Blair, Lib Dem, Cameron, I think Cameron again, Lib Dem, Boris (as anyone would have been better than the anti Semite) , if it came to it today between Rishi and Sir Keir - it would be Rishi - as on balance - he is the better communicator, not as plastic as Starmer. Plus I like the fact he is not usual pale and stale face of Labour or the Tory red trouser type.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Starmer's education speech - a critical error & snobbery

You were asked on here last week - if you were PM how you would stop the small boats problem - you had no answer, other than waffle and name calling.

You were then asked if you gave everyone who applied, a job and somewhere to live, school etc etc - then what would you do when you have the same problem a year later (presuming that you still hadn't fixed the small boats problem) - no meaningful response.

It was never a problem for Blair as he wanted as many to come in as possible. But for everyone else since - it's been impossible to stop - Starmer would be no different.

ps my voting record - Foot (my dad virtually forced me to), Kinnock, Blair, Blair, Lib Dem, Cameron, I think Cameron again, Lib Dem, Boris (as anyone would have been better than the anti Semite) , if it came to it today between Rishi and Sir Keir - it would be Rishi - as on balance - he is the better communicator, not as plastic as Starmer. Plus I like the fact he is not usual pale and stale face of Labour or the Tory red trouser type.

So you just vote for a leader then.

[jon1959]

Re: Starmer's education speech - a critical error & snobbery

You were asked on here last week - if you were PM how you would stop the small boats problem - you had no answer, other than waffle and name calling.

You were then asked if you gave everyone who applied, a job and somewhere to live, school etc etc - then what would you do when you have the same problem a year later (presuming that you still hadn't fixed the small boats problem) - no meaningful response.

It was never a problem for Blair as he wanted as many to come in as possible. But for everyone else since - it's been impossible to stop - Starmer would be no different.

ps my voting record - Foot (my dad virtually forced me to), Kinnock, Blair, Blair, Lib Dem, Cameron, I think Cameron again, Lib Dem, Boris (as anyone would have been better than the anti Semite) , if it came to it today between Rishi and Sir Keir - it would be Rishi - as on balance - he is the better communicator, not as plastic as Starmer. Plus I like the fact he is not usual pale and stale face of Labour or the Tory red trouser type.

So once your dad's influence was gone, it was all down hill in a rightwards direction?

PS - You don't have to keep banging that 'anti Semite' drum. It worked. Truth died and mud stuck. Now it's time to move on to the next target that's a threat to the people you admire and vote for, and a few more words and ideas that can be gutted of meaning!

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Starmer's education speech - a critical error & snobbery

Starmer will soon make a speech in Kent about "snobbery" in education. The central claim and assumption is that non-vocational education is discriminatory and letting children down, and that academic education is, and should be, for everyone.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/05/keir-starmer-snobbish-class-ceiling-shatter-let-children-get-ahead

But is it snobbery?
I can see both academic and non-academic people giving this short shrift. Some people are interested in academia. Some are more practical / vocational and not so interested in advanced maths, history, philosophy etc. as it simply does nothing for their future career or job. I find it odd that Starmer says that not making all children be academic is "snobbery". This is a good example of upper middle class people, or rich people, showing their sense of "noblesse oblige". They mix and operate in social bubbles, never mixing with the working classes, nor socialising with people who are have vocational work. Disconnected. Just like Nick Clegg. Just like Boris. Just like Rich-y Soon-Out. And so it is for Starmer, the North London millionaire QC that he is.

Prior form from politicians
This isn't the first time we have heard such pompous diagnosis of doom for those poor non-academics. It was ever thus in the 1960s and 1970s when there was a groundswell amongst the political elite that grammar schools were snobby and technical colleges were for down-and-outs. As a result we have people going through university, thinking that there are more clever people than they really are. I see it in the City. Amongst the bright sparks, I also see plenty of overrated dirge. On the other side, and unlike Germany, we have a lack of appreciation for technical apprenticeships and engineering. We need to stop attacking the vocational education route. It is horses for courses, and all horses need to choose their own paddock, rather than all being whipped in the same direction.

Bubbled snobbery elsewhere - social circles
The real snobbery here is upper middle class bubbled folk pitying the vocationally trained - the car mechanics, plumbers, joiners, production operatives, car manufacturing engineers and the like. They look down on them with a false sense of superiority because they "read Philosophy at Cambridge" and "these poor sods didn't". My grandfather went to Pontypridd boys grammar school because he was intelligent. But he never liked it and left at 14 to work in the coal mines with his friends, and chiefly to support his ill parents. He just wanted a job where he could use his very good arithmetic skills, but never had an interest in studying calculus nor algebra. It simply wasn't of any practical use to him. He ended up in factory as a foreman on Trefforest Industrial estate in the 1960s and 1970s. He loved his job. An honest days wage for an honest days work, and a bit of overtime when needed. Not everyone wants an academic education even if they are clever. Not everyone is fit for it either. And many non-academics do well without it, thank you. And I say that, as an academic myself.

But these bubbled people, where lawyer socialises with lawyers, and accountants only mix with their work accountants mates, and directors with directors (because they are useful networks) are often unaware that many self employed plumbers and carpenters, car mechanics running their own garages, and engineers working their way up, is that salaries of £45,000-£70,000 are quite achievable. Ladies running their own hairdresser salons or coffee chops can earn £30k a year and enjoy their job mixing with all in the community, enjoying their work, and taking a comfortable wage. This is clear to me, hanging out in my local rugby club, football club and local watering hole. Meanwhile, many academic accountants and teachers barely pass the 30k mark in many parts of the country, take work home and are even working on holidays. The Brucie Bonus is that many of these non-academic folk have no university debt and enjoy their weekends quite freely without having to "log on to catch up", or have "worlidays" (working on holidays).

Horses for Courses
If only these bubbled, wealthy, middle class / upper class people suffering from middle class guilt would stop reading the bubbled "mea culpa" stories in The Guardian, The Independent and The Times, stopped trying to be Mother Theresa to all sundry and assessed themselves first. If they actually got involved in the local communities they would see that "reading at Uni" isn't for everyone. But that is where the real snobbery lies - what elite lawyer or director mixes with a local car mechanic and plumber, eh? Oh no, not a "valuable social network contact" there is there? Bubbled inside their own cocoons. Oblivious to life outside it. As ignorant as they come.

Politicians of all colours should be sorting out the national debt, generating a sound economy, and providing basic services. Not being a Nanny State and telling us what choices to make, and to wipe our own arse with. Humans adults can think for themselves - if they are allowed to think like adults, and not be baby-fied by pompous, preaching politicians. This is Starmer's first mistake. I wonder how the electorate will read this faux pas?

This all reads like you have a massive chip on your shoulder.

I haven't seen the speech but have skimmed over their briefing doc and it seems mostly reasonable if slightly lacking detail/ambition for me.

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Mission-breaking-down-barriers.pdf

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Re: Starmer's education speech - a critical error & snobbery

You were asked on here last week - if you were PM how you would stop the small boats problem - you had no answer, other than waffle and name calling.

You were then asked if you gave everyone who applied, a job and somewhere to live, school etc etc - then what would you do when you have the same problem a year later (presuming that you still hadn't fixed the small boats problem) - no meaningful response.

It was never a problem for Blair as he wanted as many to come in as possible. But for everyone else since - it's been impossible to stop - Starmer would be no different.

ps my voting record - Foot (my dad virtually forced me to), Kinnock, Blair, Blair, Lib Dem, Cameron, I think Cameron again, Lib Dem, Boris (as anyone would have been better than the anti Semite) , if it came to it today between Rishi and Sir Keir - it would be Rishi - as on balance - he is the better communicator, not as plastic as Starmer. Plus I like the fact he is not usual pale and stale face of Labour or the Tory red trouser type.

You are the one name calling with your anti semite cobblers

It's straight out of the tory party guidebook and you are the centrefold

[JamesWales]

Re: Starmer's education speech - a critical error & snobbery

You are the one name calling with your anti semite cobblers

It's straight out of the tory party guidebook and you are the centrefold

Cobblers?

In 2019, 86% of British Jews though there was a high level of antisemitism amongst Labour members..only 6% said the same about the Tories and Lib Dems and almost half (46%) said the same about UKIP!

Corbyn had his pros and cons like everyone but he did mix with some pretty shady characters and I think antisemitism did become a growing issue within the party under his watch.

Starmer has done well to stamp it out, perhaps even too overzealously sometimes because there is a grey area where antisemitism meets legitimate criticism of Israel.

https://www.survation.com/new-polling-of-british-jews-shows-tensions-remain-strong-between-labour-and-the-british-jewish-community/#:~:text=The%20poll%2C%20conducted%20using%20Survation's,of%20antisemitism%20and%205%20represented

[jon1959]

Re: Starmer's education speech - a critical error & snobbery

Cobblers?

In 2019, 86% of British Jews though there was a high level of antisemitism amongst Labour members..only 6% said the same about the Tories and Lib Dems and almost half (46%) said the same about UKIP!

Corbyn had his pros and cons like everyone but he did mix with some pretty shady characters and I think antisemitism did become a growing issue within the party under his watch.

Starmer has done well to stamp it out, perhaps even too overzealously sometimes because there is a grey area where antisemitism meets legitimate criticism of Israel.

https://www.survation.com/new-pollin...%20represented

Perception is important, but after 4 years of an orchestrated campaign by political opponents inside and outside the Labour Party, and the vast majority of the press and UK media (especially the 'liberal' media led by the Guardian and BBC) it is little wonder that those numbers came up. At the same time the general public thought that over 35% of Labour members (35% of 550,000 +) had been accused of anti-semitism. The actual figure was 0.1%. And many of those accusations were inventions - or were far right social media posts falsely attributed to Labour members. Many more were for the 'new anti-semitism' (invented in the 1990s) of opposing the political ideology of Zionism (especially by calling it inherently racist), opposing illegal settlement expansion and war crimes by Israel, supporting non-violent resistance to ethnic cleansing at the request of Palestinian civil society organisations, like BDS, claiming that the anti-semitism crisis in Labour was exaggerated, and even in a few cases of advocating a 2 state solution to Israel-Palestine in line with the UN and most world governments. A high proportion of Labour Party members charged with these 'crimes' were (and are) Jewish.

Corbyn was a disaster in dealing with 'the crisis', in large part because he constantly demonstrated his political pacifism by not standing up to it - by clearly identifying the real examples of anti-semitism (hatred of or discrimination against Jewish people) of which there were some, but explaining and rejecting the false allegations. He avoided conflict, offered compromises (where there should have been none), and eventually tried to paint himself as a more effective witch hunter than the Labour right. A doomed and flawed strategy that set back the fight against racism (especially anti semitism) for years and handed the Labour Party to Starmer. 200,000 members left (to the joy of the Starmer clique), the Forde report was ignored, the Board of Deputies retained its veto over parts of Labour's internal policy and membership rules, and the front bench fell over themselves to announce they were all-in Zionists.

[pipster]

Re: Starmer's education speech - a critical error & snobbery

Corbyn was a Brexiteer (just not vocal about it) actively campaigned previously to come out - just like Tony Benn.
The only party to have this done to them by the Human rights commission (I think the BNP had the same perhaps)

As a man he has always been a campaigner / criticiser - and then after 40 years of doing that - expects Labour MPs to tow his line.
Signs anti Semitic books without realising.
Then puts forward Shami Chakrabarti to be Dame - then asks her to investigate if the party is anti semitic - and remarkably she says no - whereas the Human Rights commission yes (strange one that).

Then leads his party into the biggest ever election defeat since 1930's - and claims he won. Maybe he's more like Trump than we gave him credit for.
And now in his place we have cardboard Keir - who ironically was the shadow Brexit secretary

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Re: Starmer's education speech - a critical error & snobbery

Corbyn was a Brexiteer (just not vocal about it) actively campaigned previously to come out - just like Tony Benn.
The only party to have this done to them by the Human rights commission (I think the BNP had the same perhaps)

As a man he has always been a campaigner / criticiser - and then after 40 years of doing that - expects Labour MPs to tow his line.
Signs anti Semitic books without realising.
Then puts forward Shami Chakrabarti to be Dame - then asks her to investigate if the party is anti semitic - and remarkably she says no - whereas the Human Rights commission yes (strange one that).

Then leads his party into the biggest ever election defeat since 1930's - and claims he won. Maybe he's more like Trump than we gave him credit for.
And now in his place we have cardboard Keir - who ironically was the shadow Brexit secretary

Cardboard Keir ?

Raving tory alert , that sort of slur is straight out of the daily mail quotebook

Same as dripford etc

Everyone knows starmer is lacking in charisma and personality but come on for feck sake

[jon1959]

Re: Starmer's education speech - a critical error & snobbery

Corbyn was a Brexiteer (just not vocal about it) actively campaigned previously to come out - just like Tony Benn.
The only party to have this done to them by the Human rights commission (I think the BNP had the same perhaps)

As a man he has always been a campaigner / criticiser - and then after 40 years of doing that - expects Labour MPs to tow his line.
Signs anti Semitic books without realising.
Then puts forward Shami Chakrabarti to be Dame - then asks her to investigate if the party is anti semitic - and remarkably she says no - whereas the Human Rights commission yes (strange one that).

Then leads his party into the biggest ever election defeat since 1930's - and claims he won. Maybe he's more like Trump than we gave him credit for.
And now in his place we have cardboard Keir - who ironically was the shadow Brexit secretary

Corbyn campaigned half-heartedly for Remain (with reservations). He did well over 100 trades union and other meetings on Brexit. He wasn't wanted on the official Remain campaign, and he was happy not to rub shoulders with the Remain big hitters.

Brexit sank Labour more than any other issue in 2019. The Labour policy was an incoherent mess. Corbyn went looking for compromise again, when he should have been firmer and faced down the people in his shadow cabinet (like Starmer) who invented the garbage that went in the manifesto.

The Equality & Human Rights Commission investigation was politically motivated. There has been no investigation into Tory Islamophobia or many of the other cases where political parties (and other institutions) seem to have a serious case to answer. The EHRC responds, it rarely initiates. If you read their full report it is embarrassing, but far from damning. They gave technical 'guilty' verdicts on two cases, identified weaknesses in managing allegations and investigations (directed at Corbyn's office and the anti-Corbyn party machine) - against complainants and accused - and came forward with a list of recommendations that Corbyn said should be implemented asap.

You have got the timeline backwards with Shami Chakrabarti. She was asked to do the internal investigation in April 2016. It was published in June 2016. She was made a life peer in September 2016 (Corbyn's sole Labour nomination) so that she could become the shadow Attorney General.

I agree with your general description of Corbyn as an outsider, a vocal critic and campaigner - but I doubt he ever expected Labour MPs to 'toe the line'. He had (and has) his strengths - but party management as not amongst them. I think the allegations of anti semitism are pure nonsense and hypocrisy (and most of his accusers retracted after a while, when the mud had stuck, choosing instead to claim that he allowed anti semitism to grow in Labour). There were a few mis-steps, a few lazy endorsements of the sort that all MPs make (many much more serious than 'the book' or 'the mural') and even then there was massive misrepresentation in the press. He also had a habit of creating peace-making platforms for people who were labelled as terrorists (sometimes with justification, sometimes not) but were likely to get a Nobel Peace Prize a few decades later. That was a rich mine for his opponents to dig in.

Corbyn never claimed he had won anything - but he did get a bit carried away in 2017 with the biggest vote share increase since 1945, and the best popular vote for Labour since 2001 (Better than Blair in 2005, Brown in 2010 and Miliband in 2015). But he lost. The 2019 election was a disaster and the lowest seat count since 1935. Corbyn resigned.... then got purged.

And now 'cardboard Kier'? I could cope with cardboard, but Starmer is much worse than an empty, stilted personality vacuum. He has an agenda (an agenda beyond winning by letting the Tories self-destruct) that I really dislike. The worst elements of Blairism, with none of the charisma or mild social justice and redistributive agenda that carried through the first two terms. He's drinking vintage champaign with Murdoch already!

[life on mars]

Re: Starmer's education speech - a critical error & snobbery

Error ?

Snobbery in Labour ??? ??

Private education for one's own children ??

Roll back on his Corbyn election manifesto??.

U Turn ??

Not appearing on picket lines??

Further Privatise Health Internal market ??

By the end of the year he'll be wearing a blue a badge with Tony Blairs big white teeth grin shining back at you ..

[pipster]

Re: Starmer's education speech - a critical error & snobbery

Cardboard Keir ?

Raving tory alert , that sort of slur is straight out of the daily mail quotebook

Same as dripford etc

Everyone knows starmer is lacking in charisma and personality but come on for feck sake

You do know why he is called Dripford dont you ? - especially on icwales ?

[life on mars]

Re: Starmer's education speech - a critical error & snobbery

Latest News Sir Kier is no longer a Blairite, he has decided to flip to being Cameron , as his policies have no real bite or newness , he is no committal as boy wonder Cameron was and is , he finds Tony too right wing , more to follow