40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

[jon1959]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

They could have prevented their own people being murdered by not sanctioning the slaughter of people at a festival, not kidnapping people and refusing to release them and not hiding their operatives amongst the men, women and children of Gaza mind.

More progress would likely have been made if many of the protesters in the west has recognised these facts a bit more.

Another apologist. No surprise!

[JamesWales]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Another apologist. No surprise!

As if. Its all abhorrant. I'm just saying more lives would likely have been saved if your fellow protesters had pushed more for peace and less for being anti Israel.

[Gofer Blue]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I didn't have you down as such a crass apologist for the perpetrators of daily war crimes and genocide!

Hamas and the other Islamist organisations are often violent and always authoritarian. They forced the secular Fatah/PLO out of Gaza (with plenty of help from Likud and especially Netanyahu doing their 'divide and rule' act) and have at times used intimidation and violence to maintain their position. They were guilty of war crimes on 7 October 2023. But Hamas is part of the population of Gaza. There is no where else for them to go. They are doctors, nurses, police, administrators, sewage workers and also fighters. They are not embedded (as a journalist might be), they are part of an overcrowded and strangled concentration camp.

When it comes to the daily killing (dismembering, burning, crushing) of Palestinian civilians (especially the 15,000 plus children) it is 100% down to the actions of Israel - the IDF/IOF. And there is a mountain of evidence that this is not 'just' down to mistakes, or 'collateral damage' where murdering a hundred non-combatants is acceptable if there is a chance of also killing a Palestinian fighter. It is clear that many of these civilian deaths are the result of a government policy of killing, terrorising and making life impossible in order to clear Gaza for Israeli Jewish occupation. The ruling coalition have not been shy of boasting about this aim.

Israel has been 'mowing the grass' in Gaza for decades - remember the white phosphorus, the murder of kids playing football on the beach, the bombing of residential blocks - and has been murdering (through settlers or the IDF) in increasing numbers on the West Bank as part of its ethnic cleansing plans (no Hamas there).

Hamas and Islamic Jihad are guilty of their crimes and Israel is guilty of its crimes. And Israel (with its UK/US/German supplied arms) is already at 40x the death toll achieved by Hamas. So no - the corpses of Palestinian children in their mothers arms are not there because of the actions of Hamas. To pretend that is dishonest and shameful!

Wow. I suppose it must be very non-PC these days then to even dare to question the role of Hamas in the destruction of Palestine as you immediately label me as a crass apologist for the IDF. Lets be straight here – both sides have blood on their hands and I condemn them both.

Do you deny then that Hamas fighters are hiding in (or under) buildings housing ordinary Palestinians? You admit that Hamas use violence and intimidation to maintain their position, so should it be a surprise that they would use such intimidation to hide behind civilians in their homes, schools and hospitals? Of course they have a grievance against Israel for all the years of suppression but they should have known full well what the Israeli response to the events of October 2023 would be.

The whole situation is a tragedy and I cannot see any end to it. I watch Al Jazeera most days and it breaks my heart to see, in particular, the children who are suffering and traumatised by the daily onslaught. (This is why I have written to my M.P. about some kind of Kinder-transport for orphaned Palestinian into European countries including the U.K. but only got a negative response sadly).

[jon1959]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Wow. I suppose it must be very non-PC these days then to even dare to question the role of Hamas in the destruction of Palestine as you immediately label me as a crass apologist for the IDF. Lets be straight here – both sides have blood on their hands and I condemn them both.

Do you deny then that Hamas fighters are hiding in (or under) buildings housing ordinary Palestinians? You admit that Hamas use violence and intimidation to maintain their position, so should it be a surprise that they would use such intimidation to hide behind civilians in their homes, schools and hospitals? Of course they have a grievance against Israel for all the years of suppression but they should have known full well what the Israeli response to the events of October 2023 would be.

The whole situation is a tragedy and I cannot see any end to it. I watch Al Jazeera most days and it breaks my heart to see, in particular, the children who are suffering and traumatised by the daily onslaught. (This is why I have written to my M.P. about some kind of Kinder-transport for orphaned Palestinian into European countries including the U.K. but only got a negative response sadly).

I don't care about PC or non PC.

I think everyone has a right to question (and condemn if they choose) the actions or even the existence of Hamas.

But you claimed that the death (murder) of Palestinian children is '100% down to the actions of Hamas'.

Not Israel.

That is what I responded to and what I called a 'crass apologist' claim. That is what it is.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Wow. I suppose it must be very non-PC these days then to even dare to question the role of Hamas in the destruction of Palestine as you immediately label me as a crass apologist for the IDF. Lets be straight here – both sides have blood on their hands and I condemn them both.

Do you deny then that Hamas fighters are hiding in (or under) buildings housing ordinary Palestinians? You admit that Hamas use violence and intimidation to maintain their position, so should it be a surprise that they would use such intimidation to hide behind civilians in their homes, schools and hospitals? Of course they have a grievance against Israel for all the years of suppression but they should have known full well what the Israeli response to the events of October 2023 would be.

The whole situation is a tragedy and I cannot see any end to it. I watch Al Jazeera most days and it breaks my heart to see, in particular, the children who are suffering and traumatised by the daily onslaught. (This is why I have written to my M.P. about some kind of Kinder-transport for orphaned Palestinian into European countries including the U.K. but only got a negative response sadly).

I note that you have mentioned a couple of times about Palestinian children being brought to the UK but wouldn't they find Arabic countries less alien?

[Gofer Blue]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I note that you have mentioned a couple of times about Palestinian children being brought to the UK but wouldn't they find Arabic countries less alien?

Good question. It's a bit telling that we don't hear anything along these lines, although I may have missed it. Could it be that Palestinians are persona non grata in other Arabic speaking nations? E.g. Egypt seems to have kept their border with Gaza firmly shut apart from a few who need urgent medical care.

[Gofer Blue]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I don't care about PC or non PC.

I think everyone has a right to question (and condemn if they choose) the actions or even the existence of Hamas.

But you claimed that the death (murder) of Palestinian children is '100% down to the actions of Hamas'.

Not Israel.

That is what I responded to and what I called a 'crass apologist' claim. That is what it is.

Hamas were either stupid or deliberate when they attacked Israel last October, and my money is on the latter. Everybody knows that Israel has an eye-for-an-eye philosophy, possibly a two-eyes-for an-eye philosophy actually, and thus the October event effectively invited the IDF to come after Hamas in what is essentially guerilla warfare now.

I agree that Israel is hostile to the Palestinians and over the years their actions, and those of the illegal settlers, have caused a massive amount of resentment towards them. Clearly the IDF are directly responsible for the death, yes murder, of thousands of innocent children and that will be on their conscience. However I stick to what I wrote - I believe if Hamas had not carried out that attack in October then we would not be witnessing what we are now and hence are 100% responsible for the situation. If that makes me an apologist in your eyes then so be it.

[stevo]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

How many times have we seen weeping Palestinian mothers holding the corpses of their children and asking what did he/she do to deserve this? The answer of course is nothing but is 100% down to the actions of Hamas.

Not a rational response to Gofers comment.
I know it's warm today, but overheating and going OTT on what is a reasonable comment is pointless.

They could have prevented their own people being murdered by not sanctioning the slaughter of people at a festival, not kidnapping people and refusing to release them and not hiding their operatives amongst the men, women and children of Gaza mind.

More progress would likely have been made if many of the protesters in the west has recognised these facts a bit more.

Let's go back to the troubles of NI. Supposing the IRA had done a mass bombing exercise throughout major cities in Great Britain and killed say, 1000-2000 civilians. And in response, the British Army were tasked with wiping out the IRA and in doing so, killed about 40,000 Irish people, most of which were women and children. Would you say then 'well, it's the IRA's fault. You can blame them'?

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Hamas were either stupid or deliberate when they attacked Israel last October, and my money is on the latter. Everybody knows that Israel has an eye-for-an-eye philosophy, possibly a two-eyes-for an-eye philosophy actually, and thus the October event effectively invited the IDF to come after Hamas in what is essentially guerilla warfare now.

I agree that Israel is hostile to the Palestinians and over the years their actions, and those of the illegal settlers, have caused a massive amount of resentment towards them. Clearly the IDF are directly responsible for the death, yes murder, of thousands of innocent children and that will be on their conscience. However I stick to what I wrote - I believe if Hamas had not carried out that attack in October then we would not be witnessing what we are now and hence are 100% responsible for the situation. If that makes me an apologist in your eyes then so be it.

I'm not wishing to cause an argument but that's 100% not possible. It's not logic. HAMAS 'triggered' a response but not the way Israel responded. One of the responses could have been to start treating Palestinians with respect, forgiveness, entered talks to negotiate the release of hostages, nuked them, used biological weapons, ignored them. You're not making sense. What would Jesus have done?

[stevo]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

UN top court says Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories is illegal

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjerjzxlpvdo

[jeepster]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

We all know it is illegal but most of Israeli dont.

[jon1959]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I note that you have mentioned a couple of times about Palestinian children being brought to the UK but wouldn't they find Arabic countries less alien?

Good question. It's a bit telling that we don't hear anything along these lines, although I may have missed it. Could it be that Palestinians are persona non grata in other Arabic speaking nations? E.g. Egypt seems to have kept their border with Gaza firmly shut apart from a few who need urgent medical care.

Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon have been resisting calls (from Israel and others) for them to take in large numbers of Gazans. Egypt has kept the border fairly tight - although they have still let almost 100,000 Gazans cross in the past 9 months - before that they didn't have a major Palestinian refugee population.

I think there are two main reasons:

Jordan already has 2.4m Palestinian refugees living in camps; Syria has 584k; Lebanon 491k; and even Saudi Arabia has 240k. They don't want to add to an already difficult situation for the refugees and host countries.

The other reason is that they don't want to collude in ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Palestine. They know that driving arabs out of the West Bank and Gaza so those territories can be fully occupied and annexed is an Israeli government aim - articulated by Netanyahu as much as Smotrich and Ben-Gvir. Their demand is for a ceasefire, release of hostages, aid, power, sanitation and water, followed by urgent rebuilding - so that people can live in their homeland and not be part of another Nakba.

A 'Kinder Transport' for orphaned Palestinian children might well have different motives and might in a limited way be a good thing - whether to neighbouring countries or to 'the West'. But it might still play in to a bigger Gazan ethnic cleansing project.

[truthpaste]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I'm not wishing to cause an argument but that's 100% not possible. It's not logic. HAMAS 'triggered' a response but not the way Israel responded. One of the responses could have been to start treating Palestinians with respect, forgiveness, entered talks to negotiate the release of hostages, nuked them, used biological weapons, ignored them. You're not making sense. What would Jesus have done?

Your response discounts the evil agenda of Hamas. If they had not been put in charge of the region by those in palestine (for younger people in Palestine - by the previous generation), then yes. A reasonable dialogue could be had and the bloodshed may not have happened.
But that's like saying that Churchill could have negotiated with Germany and ignored the presence and influence of Hitler.
You remove the head of the snake, period. And if the snake has wrapped itself around the people, then the snake still has to go, as it will become stronger if left to grow.
Yes the bloodshed has been terrible, but Israel is more than aware that the threat to their nation is far bigger than this specific conflict, they are a nation the size of Wales trying to live in the midst of nations that want them driven into the sea.

To look at this conflict in isolation is to ignore the bigger picture. It will infuriate the jon1959's of this world, but Israel will do more than survive, they will prosper; and the sooner the 'god of this world' gets used to that promise, the better.

[Jordi Culé]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Your response discounts the evil agenda of Hamas. If they had not been put in charge of the region by those in palestine (for younger people in Palestine - by the previous generation), then yes. A reasonable dialogue could be had and the bloodshed may not have happened.
But that's like saying that Churchill could have negotiated with Germany and ignored the presence and influence of Hitler.
You remove the head of the snake, period. And if the snake has wrapped itself around the people, then the snake still has to go, as it will become stronger if left to grow.
Yes the bloodshed has been terrible, but Israel is more than aware that the threat to their nation is far bigger than this specific conflict, they are a nation the size of Wales trying to live in the midst of nations that want them driven into the sea.

To look at this conflict in isolation is to ignore the bigger picture. It will infuriate the jon1959's of this world, but Israel will do more than survive, they will prosper; and the sooner the 'god of this world' gets used to that promise, the better.

It appears to me you've (conveniently?) forgotten Israel's contribution and influence in putting Hamas in government within Palestine?

I'm assuming it's just an oversight on your behalf?

[truthpaste]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

It appears to me you've (conveniently?) forgotten Israel's contribution and influence in putting Hamas in government within Palestine?

I'm assuming it's just an oversight on your behalf?

I suggest you look back at history and the circumstances of their take over, this isn't the time for froth.

The Guardian - June 2007


Hamas fighters today basked in triumph after taking complete control in Gaza as the west scrambled for a response to the arrival of Islamist power on Israel's doorstep.

In a stark demonstration of the new facts on the ground, a masked Hamas fighter sat down at the desk of the Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas, also known as Abu Mazen, and declared an end to the western-backed authority in the Gaza strip.