The Liberal Democrats

[Swiss Peter]

Re: The Liberal Democrats

Indicators like GDP growth, unemployment, wage, growth, inflation, stock markets etc? This is hardly cherry picked stuff.

It's been seven years - a long term picture is emerging and it isn't what you said would happen.

One thing I have learnt in the last 7 years is the utter futility of engaging on this with people of a certain mindset. I really should know better by now.

(By the way we didn't leave 7 years ago, and there has been so much 'fog' since we did leave that it is impossible to asses a long term definitive picture of impacts at this stage in the way that you claim. I know that you know this. It just doesn't fit your narrative though, does it? ).

However, as you've made a claim that relates specifically to me, please can you tell me which predictions I made that aren't/won't be coming to pass?.

[Dorcus]

Re: The Liberal Democrats

One thing I have learnt in the last 7 years is the utter futility of engaging on this with people of a certain mindset. I really should know better by now.

(By the way we didn't leave 7 years ago, and there has been so much 'fog' since we did leave that it is impossible to asses a long term definitive picture of impacts at this stage in the way that you claim. I know that you know this. It just doesn't fit your narrative though, does it? ).

However, as you've made a claim that relates specifically to me, please can you tell me which predictions I made that aren't/won't be coming to pass?.

You're wasting your time; it's Jimmy's Iwo Jima. He's not going to let trifling matters like facts get in the way of his obsession.

[JamesWales]

Re: The Liberal Democrats

One thing I have learnt in the last 7 years is the utter futility of engaging on this with people of a certain mindset. I really should know better by now.

(By the way we didn't leave 7 years ago, and there has been so much 'fog' since we did leave that it is impossible to asses a long term definitive picture of impacts at this stage in the way that you claim. I know that you know this. It just doesn't fit your narrative though, does it? ).

However, as you've made a claim that relates specifically to me, please can you tell me which predictions I made that aren't/won't be coming to pass?.

What mindset is that Peter? I've quoted real data. I'm not claiming Brexit has made the country instantly better. I'm saying it hasn't had much impact on the economy. And that's because it hasn't.

Of course there has been fog. First voting to leave would lead to disaster, then actually leaving, then we had to wait until after covid and now that's happened and yet growth outpaces Germany and France.

That's the reality. I'm not arguing it's perfect. I'm arguing there's no real impact.

You tell me - when will we start seeing the enormous economic impact? It's always "next year!"

[JamesWales]

Re: The Liberal Democrats

You're wasting your time; it's Jimmy's Iwo Jima. He's not going to let trifling matters like facts get in the way of his obsession.

I am literally the one quoting facts vs people quoting predictions.

Good lord above, Ducky!

[Swiss Peter]

Re: The Liberal Democrats

What mindset is that Peter? I've quoted real data. I'm not claiming Brexit has made the country instantly better. I'm saying it hasn't had much impact on the economy. And that's because it hasn't.

Of course there has been fog. First voting to leave would lead to disaster, then actually leaving, then we had to wait until after covid and now that's happened and yet growth outpaces Germany and France.

That's the reality. I'm not arguing it's perfect. I'm arguing there's no real impact.

You tell me - when will we start seeing the enormous economic impact? It's always "next year!"

Ok, so if we accept that we can now see long term impacts (and I don't, btw), then we should also be seeing the upsides. You tell me, James - when will we start seeing these upsides? It's always "next year"! Unless, of course, you see, the 'no impact' that you keep trumpeting through your metrics and 'facts', as an upside in itself?. It's a good strategy - set the bar so low that you are bound to be happy with the outcome! I think you'll struggle to convince many that the disruptions and divisiveness of recent years (and I can write you a long list of examples, some of which impact on me personally) have been worth it for your 'no real impact'.

....anyway... you didn't answer my question. I'd let it go if you hadn't directed it specifically at me. You said "a long term picture is emerging, and it isn't what you said would happen". I've always consistently said that the EU is a mixed bag of good and bad, but that the process of leaving would be a disruptive and divisive mess, with the prospect of plenty of pain for not much gain. Which bit of that has not proved correct, James?

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: The Liberal Democrats

Yeah, I had a few mates lose their jobs. One had a House repossessed.

I remember expenses scandals, cut backs, low morale, airlines going bust when people were abroad, a pretty severe recession, lads dying in Afghanistan, house price collapse, negative equity, bank bailouts using our money, unemployment being far higher than it is now.

Was no picnic. The world hasn't been the same since before the 2008 crash really.

Tough times caused by a global economic crash. Not even the Tories accused Labour of doing anything wrong back then, in fact they backed Labour's spending plans year on year.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: The Liberal Democrats

Tough times caused by a global economic crash. Not even the Tories accused Labour of doing anything wrong back then, in fact they backed Labour's spending plans year on year.

Until they got in government then they made everyone go to food banks as they slashed everything to bits

[JamesWales]

Re: The Liberal Democrats

Tough times caused by a global economic crash. Not even the Tories accused Labour of doing anything wrong back then, in fact they backed Labour's spending plans year on year.

Not blaming Labour at all. Maybe they were guilty of a failure to prepare perhaps, but not really.

But my point is it's a myth to say the country was great until 2010. It wasn't.

It's actually a fairly daft strategy cos the Tories can point to the data of the end of the last Labour govt and say it was generally worse..which it was, even if it wasn't their fault.

[JamesWales]

Re: The Liberal Democrats

Ok, so if we accept that we can now see long term impacts (and I don't, btw), then we should also be seeing the upsides. You tell me, James - when will we start seeing these upsides? It's always "next year"! Unless, of course, you see, the 'no impact' that you keep trumpeting through your metrics and 'facts', as an upside in itself?. It's a good strategy - set the bar so low that you are bound to be happy with the outcome! I think you'll struggle to convince many that the disruptions and divisiveness of recent years (and I can write you a long list of examples, some of which impact on me personally) have been worth it for your 'no real impact'.

....anyway... you didn't answer my question. I'd let it go if you hadn't directed it specifically at me. You said "a long term picture is emerging, and it isn't what you said would happen". I've always consistently said that the EU is a mixed bag of good and bad, but that the process of leaving would be a disruptive and divisive mess, with the prospect of plenty of pain for not much gain. Which bit of that has not proved correct, James?

Was more of a 'royal you' really Peter. If in fact you are open and balanced in your view on it, recognise pros and cons and look at the data holistically and have not endlessly been predicting disaster etc then I apologise if I have misrepresented you.

I've never said it will be a glorious success. On balance I think it will be better in the long run but not by much and not for all sectors. I've always said, give me 100 votes and I would have given 45 of them to Remain. My real passion comes from respecting the result and identifying and making the most of opportunities etc. I thought, and still think the failure to respect the vote was appalling and very damaging.

Again, if I have misrepresented your view, my apologies.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: The Liberal Democrats

Was more of a 'royal you' really Peter. If in fact you are open and balanced in your view on it, recognise pros and cons and look at the data holistically and have not endlessly been predicting disaster etc then I apologise if I have misrepresented you.

I've never said it will be a glorious success. On balance I think it will be better in the long run but not by much and not for all sectors. I've always said, give me 100 votes and I would have given 45 of them to Remain. My real passion comes from respecting the result and identifying and making the most of opportunities etc. I thought, and still think the failure to respect the vote was appalling and very damaging.

Again, if I have misrepresented your view, my apologies.

Your passion is respecting the vote ?

What the christ sort of utter nonsense are you talking about ?

Failure to respect the vote was appalling ?

You need to sort yourself out

[JamesWales]

Re: The Liberal Democrats

Your passion is respecting the vote ?

What the christ sort of utter nonsense are you talking about ?

Failure to respect the vote was appalling ?

You need to sort yourself out

As in..I was 45/55% on the vote. But I was 100% on the important of respecting it.

I am opposed to Scottish independence, but if they voted for it I would have no time for people calling for re-runs.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: The Liberal Democrats

As in..I was 45/55% on the vote. But I was 100% on the important of respecting it.

I am opposed to Scottish independence, but if they voted for it I would have no time for people calling for re-runs.

So, once a vote has taken place, there should never be a chance to overturn it?

In which case, why have general elections?

[JamesWales]

Re: The Liberal Democrats

So, once a vote has taken place, there should never be a chance to overturn it?

In which case, why have general elections?

With referendums, not for a period of time and certainly not before the damned thing has been implemented first

Referenda are different to general elections, which are specifically run on a cycle.

You know this.

[Dorcus]

Re: The Liberal Democrats

With referendums, not for a period of time and certainly not before the damned thing has been implemented first

Referenda are different to general elections, which are specifically run on a cycle.

You know this.

Referenda should never be allowed. We have a Parliamentary Democracy for good reason.

[JamesWales]

Re: The Liberal Democrats see

Referenda should never be allowed. We have a Parliamentary Democracy for good reason.

I think they should be used sparingly.

But the parliamentary democracy you speak of produced a winning party who had a manifesto promise and a policy of calling for a referendum on this topic. Parliament then voted for the referendum, so it was only ever a product of parliamentary democracy.