Brexit again - nothing to see here...

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

LoM.may choke on his alphabetti spaghetti when he finds out that the head of the BBC is a Conservative.

[JamesWales]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

And Bob, Citizens Nephew, Stevo, no claiming the moral high ground in terms of gullibility either.

The Leave campaign were wrong to target the NHS.

But the remain campaign told what proved to be complete lies about what to most families is the most precious thing of all; their home, the inheritance they may leave to kids, their housing finances etc

"House prices could fall 18% if Britain quits EU says George Osborne - Guardian 21/05/2016

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/eu-referendum-george-osborne-house-prices-brexit

How many millions who voted Remain did so based on that garbage? Or the stock market collapse, year long recession and mass redundancies? All absolute hogwash. Did you fall for it?

[Doucas]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

Usual stuff from the BBC. Grand headlines that hinge on the words could and may. Gives a few furious people a chance to let off some steam in the comments section I suppose.

What they very rarely do is actually report on the facts.

Now we all know food inflation has risen everywhere in the last year or so,

Food inflation in the UK peaked at a very high 19.1%

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/food-inflation

In the sacred beloved EU as a whole it peaked at a slightly higher 19.2%

https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/food-inflation

You can see it all at the links. Do extra charges help? Course not. Are they in any way significant to food prices versus things like the weather or supermarket competition etc? Absolutely not.

You are being played, by people who didn't get their way in a referendum and have never accepted it.

I'll gladly repost food inflation stats in six months time.

Why would you use peak instead of average inflation? Why would you use the EU as a whole instead of individual countries as obviously Eastern European countries are going to feel the Ukraine invasion more than Western ones?

I've never seen someone give bad faith arguments off of cherry picked data as much as you.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

And Bob, Citizens Nephew, Stevo, no claiming the moral high ground in terms of gullibility either.

The Leave campaign were wrong to target the NHS.

But the remain campaign told what proved to be complete lies about what to most families is the most precious thing of all; their home, the inheritance they may leave to kids, their housing finances etc

"House prices could fall 18% if Britain quits EU says George Osborne - Guardian 21/05/2016

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/eu-referendum-george-osborne-house-prices-brexit

How many millions who voted Remain did so based on that garbage? Or the stock market collapse, year long recession and mass redundancies? All absolute hogwash. Did you fall for it?

oooh 👀 …..🦄🦄🦄🦄🦄

[JamesWales]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

Why would you use peak instead of average inflation? Why would you use the EU as a whole instead of individual countries as obviously Eastern European countries are going to feel the Ukraine invasion more than Western ones?

I've never seen someone give bad faith arguments off of cherry picked data as much as you.

Hang on, you lot are always going on about how the EU is better than the UK so comparing the UK to the EU is hardly cherry picking. But fine;

Food inflation, select countries:

Germany (biggest economy) peaked at 21.2% in March 2023
France leaked at 15.9% in March 2023
Netherlands peaked at 17.9% in Feb 2023
Belgium peaked at 18% in March 2023
Sweden (Scandinavia in EU) peaked at 21% in Feb 2023
Norway (Scandinavia not in EU) peaked at 13.5% in June 2023
UK (not in EU)at 19.1% in March 2023
Portugal (as far from Ukraine in Europe as you get) peaked at 21.5% in Feb 2023
Switzerland (not in EU) peaked at 6.5% in Feb 2023

Source: https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/food-inflation?continent=europe

Nearly all countries saw huge rises in food inflation. All countries have now seen them fall right back.

Looks to me like Germany's food inflation was greater than 8% for 15 months. Looks like ours was for 16 months.

All you are doing is deciding the outcome "bReXit BaD, pEoPlE thIcKos🥴" and making things fit your narrative.

The reality being inside or outside the EU matters far far less than anyone on either side told you. Looking at the real data gives a very very loose correlation between things.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

And Bob, Citizens Nephew, Stevo, no claiming the moral high ground in terms of gullibility either.

The Leave campaign were wrong to target the NHS.

But the remain campaign told what proved to be complete lies about what to most families is the most precious thing of all; their home, the inheritance they may leave to kids, their housing finances etc

"House prices could fall 18% if Britain quits EU says George Osborne - Guardian 21/05/2016

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/eu-referendum-george-osborne-house-prices-brexit

How many millions who voted Remain did so based on that garbage? Or the stock market collapse, year long recession and mass redundancies? All absolute hogwash. Did you fall for it?

I know, I was always saying on here how I believed every word of Cameron and Osborn’s scare stories about what would happen if we voted to leave.

The problem for you and fellow leavers is that you won and so we’ll never know for sure if all of the advertising claims by the Remain side were true or not. On the other hand we know the Leave side were talking bollox when it came to things like that video, all that money to the NHS, trade agreements, cheaper prices etc, etc, etc.

[JamesWales]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

oooh 👀 …..🦄🦄🦄🦄🦄

Not sure what unicorn means in this instance, to me it's a sexual thing.

But you didn't answer the question.

[JamesWales]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

I know, I was always saying on here how I believed every word of Cameron and Osborn’s scare stories about what would happen if we voted to leave.

The problem for you and fellow leavers is that you won and so we’ll never know for sure if all of the advertising claims by the Remain side were true or not. On the other hand we know the Leave side were talking bollox when it came to things like that video, all that money to the NHS, trade agreements, cheaper prices etc, etc, etc.

No, I'm sorry, we don't know that. The NHS has seen record increases in investment. We don't know how long term impacts of trade deals will benefit us and we cannot calculate the impact of COVID and two lost years of negotiations, economic stability and all the rest.

We DO know that house prices didn't fall 18% we do know there was no year long recession and we do know that there was no stock market crash or mass redundancies.

So we absolutely do know that Britain Stronger in Europe were absolutely wrong in their campaign and we don't know how many voted Remain on those things that proved to be absolutely false.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

No, I'm sorry, we don't know that. The NHS has seen record increases in investment. We don't know how long term impacts of trade deals will benefit us and we cannot calculate the impact of COVID and two lost years of negotiations, economic stability and all the rest.

We DO know that house prices didn't fall 18% we do know there was no year long recession and we do know that there was no stock market crash or mass redundancies.

So we absolutely do know that Britain Stronger in Europe were absolutely wrong in their campaign and we don't know how many voted Remain on those things that proved to be absolutely false.

Cut out the Tory Government spokesman stuff and face facts, Leave voters were sold a pup - lots of them have reluctantly admitted it as well.

[JamesWales]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

Cut out the Tory Government spokesman stuff and face facts, Leave voters were sold a pup - lots of them have reluctantly admitted it as well.

Saying "Tory spokesman" in a post doesn't win you an argument anymore than posting guff videos from the political fringes does.

And that video you posted made two claims; that the NHS is now open to US insurance companies and that our health rights have been eroded. Any evidence of that, because I think that' bullshit.

The referendum was 8 years ago. Both sides sold whoppers, it's arrogant in the extreme to fail to see that some people voted remain based on those whoppers, just as some voted Leave.

I don't get the point you are making apart from some elaborate and pointless "I told you so" based on misinformation videos and ignoring Europe's most impactful war for 80 years and a pandemic unseen for centuries.

And you do that all to run down your own country.

What is the point? You and others must have better things to do with your time? If you spent even a small proportion of it actually scrutinizing the people who run our NHS and schools and economy in Wales, that would be more useful for a start

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

Not sure what unicorn means in this instance, to me it's a sexual thing.

But you didn't answer the question.

Your predictions are your own business James. I was just referencing the sunny uplands vision we were sold.

You are the truthpaste of Brexit evangelism.

I'm not getting into it mate. Go out and enjoy the sun. Watch you don't get trampled by unicorns.

[JamesWales]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

Your predictions are your own business James. I was just referencing the sunny uplands vision we were sold.

You are the truthpaste of Brexit evangelism.

I'm not getting into it mate. Go out and enjoy the sun. Watch you don't get trampled by unicorns.

As in any referendum or election campaign the things we are told by any party or side never reflect reality. Pretty clear demonstrations on this thread of things Remain said that proved to be absolute nonsense. How many fell for that?

I'm not evangelical about it at all. I've always been of the belief that the impacts are nothing like what people on both sides predicted. I will always try to play things with a straight bat, on this occasion citing stats on food inflation, not random videos from activists. My aim in this (and other) debates isn't to say Brexit is a spectacular success, it's to demonstrate it's pretty insignificant, esp whem factoring in wars in Europe and pandemics.

What annoys me is when people waste everyones time firstly spending years not accepting the result then cherry picking random topics and not looking at the full picture to try and prove a point where they've already decided the outcome for themselves. It's a waste of everyones time, is unhelpful and dare I say pretty selfish. If you want to say I told you so and illustrate it with random videos that take zero account of other factors and other countries performance then crack on, but can't you set up a private group for it or something?

[JamesWales]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

As in any referendum or election campaign the things we are told by any party or side never reflect reality. Pretty clear demonstrations on this thread of things Remain said that proved to be absolute nonsense. How many fell for that?

I'm not evangelical about it at all. I've always been of the belief that the impacts are nothing like what people on both sides predicted. I will always try to play things with a straight bat, on this occasion citing stats on food inflation, not random videos from activists. My aim in this (and other) debates isn't to say Brexit is a spectacular success, it's to demonstrate it's pretty insignificant, esp whem factoring in wars in Europe and pandemics.

What annoys me is when people waste everyones time firstly spending years not accepting the result then cherry picking random topics and not looking at the full picture to try and prove a point where they've already decided the outcome for themselves. It's a waste of everyones time, is unhelpful and dare I say pretty selfish. If you want to say I told you so and illustrate it with random videos that take zero account of other factors and other countries performance then crack on, but can't you set up a private group for it or something?

This was the royal 'you' btw.

[stevo]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

I don’t think anyone is saying the voting was rigged, so why say people didn’t accept the result?

The only “rigging” that went on was Russia’s interference on social media convincing gullible people that leaving the EU was a good thing.

[JamesWales]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

I don’t think anyone is saying the voting was rigged, so why say people didn’t accept the result?

The only “rigging” that went on was Russia’s interference on social media convincing gullible people that leaving the EU was a good thing.

Absolutely zero evidence of that of course.

If you are going to essentially accuse people of being stupid, how about you consider a few things?

1. The remain side told some absolute whoppers that prayed on people's fears and proved to be wildly incorrect?

2. If yes, were people gullible to believe those, yes or no?

3. Is there any evidence of Russian interference? If no, why are you posting conspiracy theories about it?

4. Is there any evidence from the video Bob posted about leaving the EU removing our 'health rights' or leaving the NHS open to US insurance companies? Yes or No?

5. Did the only actual facts in this entire thread demonstrate that food inflation peaked higher or lower in the EU than the UK, despite endless predictions to the contrary?

6. Did or did not people spend years campaigning to dismiss the result before it was implemented and did or did not at least one major party stand in the 2019 general election on a platform of "stop Brexit"?

These are yes or no questions. Have a go at answering them if you like!