Hitler.

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Hitler.

Loads of Christians say that we all have the chance to accept God

If we don't?

Well clearly its fair to assume that God let's people die who dont buy into his system

And clearly looks after those that accept him

Because either things happen by chance ....or God is involved ....and he decides

You can't have it both ways

Everybody dies regardless of whether or not they "buy into God's system". My understanding is that repenting and accepting Jesus is all that is required to have an afterlife with him. You are free to reject him and your afterlife may be somewhat different to mine!

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Hitler.

Everybody dies regardless of whether or not they "buy into God's system". My understanding is that repenting and accepting Jesus is all that is required to have an afterlife with him. You are free to reject him and your afterlife may be somewhat different to mine!

Your understanding ?

I would hope its a bit more than that

[truthpaste]

Re: Hitler.

Your understanding ?

I would hope its a bit more than that

We all base key decisions on understanding, in other words what we understand to be true.

What Gofer, myself and more crucially God (via the Bible) is saying is this, in your life on earth you will either chose to repent, or you will not.

But WHY do some people chose to believe?

Let me take you back to an iconic moment in the third Indiana Jones movie > HERE. It's only a 1 min 20 seconds clip.

Now my question is this, given that Indiana has no scientific reason to take that first step, why do you think he does?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Hitler.

We all base key decisions on understanding, in other words what we understand to be true.

What Gofer, myself and more crucially God (via the Bible) is saying is this, in your life on earth you will either chose to repent, or you will not.

But WHY do some people chose to believe?

Let me take you back to an iconic moment in the third Indiana Jones movie > HERE. It's only a 1 min 20 seconds clip.

Now my question is this, given that Indiana has no scientific reason to take that first step, why do you think he does?

He's in a corner , crapping himself , can't go back , and just crosses his fingers

That's believing in God or having no other option

I put my trust in science

[truthpaste]

Re: Hitler.

He's in a corner , crapping himself , can't go back , and just crosses his fingers

That's believing in God or having no other option

I put my trust in science

He did have another option, the option you've taken. Stay where you are and hope for the best....letting his father die.

The reason Indiana trusts the book he has been given, is because in reading it and applying it's message, it's taken him through sections of the challenge that have claimed the lives of lots of others who tried it without the book.
He can't see HOW he will survive when taking a step into the chasm, but as the book has been correct so far, he places his faith in it and that faith is justified and his father (played by Sean Connery) is saved.
Here's the lesson, we can test God's book in the things we CAN understand, to see if it's going to be trustworthy in the things we can't see or understand; or we can assume it's a load of religious nonsense, hope for the best and and go with the masses.
Which leads on to all you are left with, science!

However, science can't tell you where we (humans) all came from, why we are here, or what our ultimate destiny (final destination) is? Furthermore, science isn't always reliable.

So for what reason do you trust it and has it actually ever answered any of the big questions for you?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Hitler.

He did have another option, the option you've taken. Stay where you are and hope for the best....letting his father die.

The reason Indiana trusts the book he has been given, is because in reading it and applying it's message, it's taken him through sections of the challenge that have claimed the lives of lots of others who tried it without the book.
He can't see HOW he will survive when taking a step into the chasm, but as the book has been correct so far, he places his faith in it and that faith is justified and his father (played by Sean Connery) is saved.
Here's the lesson, we can test God's book in the things we CAN understand, to see if it's going to be trustworthy in the things we can't see or understand; or we can assume it's a load of religious nonsense, hope for the best and and go with the masses.
Which leads on to all you are left with, science!

However, science can't tell you where we (humans) all came from, why we are here, or what our ultimate destiny (final destination) is? Furthermore, science isn't always reliable.

So for what reason do you trust it and has it actually ever answered any of the big questions for you?

It is you who are part of the masses

It is non religious people who are independent and following our own way

Hoping for the best is realistic

Christians want certainty which doesn't exist

The trick is that you believe that if you give yourself over to Jesus and God you will have eternal life

It's a belief , it's not a fact and in all the years since your guidebook was written there is no evidence at all that there is an afterlife

And you believe that I will not have eternal life because I have rejected God.....I prefer to call it being not interested

The ultimate question would be that we know there are areas of this earth where other humans have not yet met us ......us being the so called civilised

In these areas for thousands of years these people have had no tvs , churches ,bibles to read, radios to listen to God's message

So not only have they not heard about your gods message they also not had the opportunity to accept God's presence or reject it

Over the years thousands of these people will obviously have lived lives without God

So which ones who have died have been given eternal life by God ?

I would assume none

That to me proves that God, Jesus and the promise of eternal life is fake

No chance of eternal life for some tribes in deepest amazon rainforest......they would need to know about God to be able to reject him

[truthpaste]

Re: Hitler.

It is you who are part of the masses

It is non religious people who are independent and following our own way

Hoping for the best is realistic

Christians want certainty which doesn't exist

The trick is that you believe that if you give yourself over to Jesus and God you will have eternal life

It's a belief , it's not a fact and in all the years since your guidebook was written there is no evidence at all that there is an afterlife

And you believe that I will not have eternal life because I have rejected God.....I prefer to call it being not interested

The ultimate question would be that we know there are areas of this earth where other humans have not yet met us ......us being the so called civilised

In these areas for thousands of years these people have had no tvs , churches ,bibles to read, radios to listen to God's message

So not only have they not heard about your gods message they also not had the opportunity to accept God's presence or reject it

Over the years thousands of these people will obviously have lived lives without God

So which ones who have died have been given eternal life by God ?

I would assume none

That to me proves that God, Jesus and the promise of eternal life is fake

No chance of eternal life for some tribes in deepest amazon rainforest......they would need to know about God to be able to reject him

So having asked you why 'science' is THE answer to life, the universe & everything - you have nothing at all!

As a distraction, you attempt to prove that the Bible is equally redundant as the ceiling of man's current knowledge - science.

Let's take a look at how you did:-

* Christians want certainty which doesn't exist - He (Jesus) certainly exists, and He provides the certainty you are looking for but have yet to find.

* The trick is that you believe that if you give yourself over to Jesus and God you will have eternal life - we all have eternal life, it's the location of that eternal life that matters - NB.

* It's a belief, it's not a fact and in all the years since your guidebook was written there is no evidence at all that there is an afterlife - the 'guidebook' checks out, hopefully you'll discover that for yourself - you see truth is truth, and it will remain true, for time and eternity; so the fact that God completed the Bible some 2000 years ago is irrelevant.

* And you believe that I will not have eternal life because I have rejected God.....I prefer to call it being not interested - you have currently rejected Christ's offer of forgiveness, you use His Name only as a curse. And if you were not interested you would not be writing hundreds of words addressing Christians!

* The ultimate question would be that we know there are areas of this earth where other humans have not yet met us ......us being the so called civilised - In these areas for thousands of years these people have had no tvs , churches ,bibles to read, radios to listen to God's message - so not only have they not heard about your gods message they also not had the opportunity to accept God's presence or reject it - over the years thousands of these people will obviously have lived lives without God

Not a bad question at all. You see God isn't limited to TV, Radio, Books or people like Missionaries; all the time we hear of other ways that God gets the Good News to people in remote places, let me give you one example:-

Just before it was illegal (link) to head into the Amazon Rainforest as a Missionary, a Missionary made contact with a remote tribe. When he discovered that the whole community had accepted Christ as their Saviour he asked them who had brought the Message of God, Sin & Repentance to them? Oddly, they told him that nobody had come to them and he was the first man to come with this message from the Bible?
So again he asked them, how did you find out about Jesus?
They pointed to an old man and said, 'he told us! One night Jesus spoke to him in a dream, when he woke up he prayed to Jesus for forgiveness and thanked Him for dying for him on the Cross, then he told the rest of us what Jesus has told him; and now we all follow Jesus too! The Missionary was understandably staggered, but then thought to himself, God appeared to people in dreams in the Old & New Testament accounts, so why in remote places, should God not be doing the same today?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Hitler.

So having asked you why 'science' is THE answer to life, the universe & everything - you have nothing at all!

It's the best we have and simple examples of facts based on science such as throwing a match on petrol leads to a fire .....are all around us

It is Christians who cannot despite lots of opportunities over hundreds of years provide any facts at all to prove there is god and there is the afterlife .....it is you who has nothing

As a distraction, you attempt to prove that the Bible is equally redundant as the ceiling of man's current knowledge - science.

Christians like you are the masters of distraction, you do it everything you are asked to show evidence of God.......every time



Let's take a look at how you did:-

* Christians want certainty which doesn't exist - He (Jesus) certainly exists, and He provides the certainty you are looking for but have yet to find.

You think he exists , you think God exists......you have no evidence they exist .....so you have no certainty .....and thats why you have that belief as a crutch

* The trick is that you believe that if you give yourself over to Jesus and God you will have eternal life - we all have eternal life, it's the location of that eternal life that matters - NB.

I have no idea what you mean

* It's a belief, it's not a fact and in all the years since your guidebook was written there is no evidence at all that there is an afterlife - the 'guidebook' checks out, hopefully you'll discover that for yourself - you see truth is truth, and it will remain true, for time and eternity; so the fact that God completed the Bible some 2000 years ago is irrelevant.

Again what on earth are you talking about

* And you believe that I will not have eternal life because I have rejected God.....I prefer to call it being not interested - you have currently rejected Christ's offer of forgiveness, you use His Name only as a curse. And if you were not interested you would not be writing hundreds of words addressing Christians!

I engage with Christians because it's my right to challenge the utter stupidity of their medieval and outdated gospel

* The ultimate question would be that we know there are areas of this earth where other humans have not yet met us ......us being the so called civilised - In these areas for thousands of years these people have had no tvs , churches ,bibles to read, radios to listen to God's message - so not only have they not heard about your gods message they also not had the opportunity to accept God's presence or reject it - over the years thousands of these people will obviously have lived lives without God

Not a bad question at all. You see God isn't limited to TV, Radio, Books or people like Missionaries; all the time we hear of other ways that God gets the Good News to people in remote places, let me give you one example:-



Just before it was illegal (link) to head into the Amazon Rainforest as a Missionary, a Missionary made contact with a remote tribe. When he discovered that the whole community had accepted Christ as their Saviour he asked them who had brought the Message of God, Sin & Repentance to them? Oddly, they told him that nobody had come to them and he was the first man to come with this message from the Bible?
So again he asked them, how did you find out about Jesus?
They pointed to an old man and said, 'he told us! One night Jesus spoke to him in a dream, when he woke up he prayed to Jesus for forgiveness and thanked Him for dying for him on the Cross, then he told the rest of us what Jesus has told him; and now we all follow Jesus too! The Missionary was understandably staggered, but then thought to himself, God appeared to people in dreams in the Old & New Testament accounts, so why in remote places, should God not be doing the same today?

As a child I used to listen to stories told to us at school by the local priest

Even then I used to think this sounds a bit far fetched and when I was 12 or so and started independent thought instead of having religion spoken to me I came to the conclusion all these stories were silly and made up to indoctrinate and trick people

I felt really pissed off at all the time I had been forced to waste in church when I could have been out on a Sunday playing football or fishing and just enjoying life

Being forced to read the bible as a ten year old kid , communion , Sunday school , absolute nonsense

It's all a con trick

[truthpaste]

Re: Hitler.

As a child I used to listen to stories told to us at school by the local priest

Even then I used to think this sounds a bit far fetched and when I was 12 or so and started independent thought instead of having religion spoken to me I came to the conclusion all these stories were silly and made up to indoctrinate and trick people

I felt really pissed off at all the time I had been forced to waste in church when I could have been out on a Sunday playing football or fishing and just enjoying life

Being forced to read the bible as a ten year old kid , communion , Sunday school , absolute nonsense

It's all a con trick

"Local Priest" - I see the problem, a Church that pays little attention to the Bible, there are NO priests appointed within the New Testament Church, which is the foundational document for all Churches honouring the authority of the Bible since the first century AD.

So yes, you are rejecting man-made religion, which as you put it is a con-trick. I also reject it.

"Being forced to read the bible as a ten year old kid" - obviously without anyone who was able to understand why it connected with the real world you were living in; I've heard this story repeated so many times from thousands of people. Yet children much younger than ten have been (and are still being) taught properly from the Bible and a number of them have grown up to become highly educated individuals at the top of thir field, still with a deep respect for God's Word and read it daily for wisdom, guidance and strength.

[truthpaste]

Re: Hitler.

Here is someone near the top of their field in acting - you've probably watched a few of his movies > Denzel

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Hitler.

"Local Priest" - I see the problem, a Church that pays little attention to the Bible, there are NO priests appointed within the New Testament Church, which is the foundational document for all Churches honouring the authority of the Bible since the first century AD.

So yes, you are rejecting man-made religion, which as you put it is a con-trick. I also reject it.

"Being forced to read the bible as a ten year old kid" - obviously without anyone who was able to understand why it connected with the real world you were living in; I've heard this story repeated so many times from thousands of people. Yet children much younger than ten have been (and are still being) taught properly from the Bible and a number of them have grown up to become highly educated individuals at the top of thir field, still with a deep respect for God's Word and read it daily for wisdom, guidance and strength.

I reject all religion

I find the evangelical lot even worse than the Catholic stuff I was forced to listen as a kid

[truthpaste]

Re: Hitler.

I reject all religion

I find the evangelical lot even worse than the Catholic stuff I was forced to listen as a kid

I suspect you are taking the wacky USA style evangelists as every evangelist!

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Hitler.

As this was a one-off historical event, it is not possible to repeat it to prove that it happened, unlike say a new scientific discovery. Hence I think you have to apply the same criteria that apply in a court of law i.e. the event simply has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt, which is a well established principle.

I found this reference: https://thedefenders.net/blogs/beyond-reasonable-doubt/ which states that:

"The prosecution is required to prove the defendant’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. This means that the evidence presented must be so convincing that no reasonable person could have any doubts about the defendant’s guilt. The burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt falls entirely on the prosecution. It must present strong and convincing evidence that leaves no room for any reasonable alternative explanations".

The key sentence I think is: it must present strong and convincing evidence that leaves no room for any reasonable alternative explanations".

Thus your statement "the existence of an empty tomb does not prove the resurrection" would be true if there was no other evidence. IMO if you look at the other evidence, then that does indeed leave no room for any reasonable alternative explanations.

Robin Friday's Ghost - I wonder if you have had any further thoughts on this? I'd be interested if you have.

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

Re: Hitler.

Robin Friday's Ghost - I wonder if you have had any further thoughts on this? I'd be interested if you have.

I'd you believe the most likely explanation is, that a dead person came back to life and escaped them fair enough. But that argument wouldn't even stand up to the civil law test of probability let alone the criminal test of being beyond all reasonable doubt.

Any number of other explanations would be more plausible. For example, the guards falling asleep, them being closet followers of Jesus, etc.

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Hitler.

I'd you believe the most likely explanation is, that a dead person came back to life and escaped them fair enough. But that argument wouldn't even stand up to the civil law test of probability let alone the criminal test of being beyond all reasonable doubt.

Any number of other explanations would be more plausible. For example, the guards falling asleep, them being closet followers of Jesus, etc.

If you haven't already I recommend you read the book "Who moved the stone" by Frank Morison. A non-Christian, he examined every facet of the cruxifixion and resurrection* of Jesus and found that all the alternative explanations are less plausible than Jesus rose from the dead.

*Including the theories that the guards fell asleep and body was stolen by the disciples, plus a whole lot more.