Thoughts and Prayers.........again.........x25

[jon1959]

Re: Thoughts and Prayers.........again.........x25

In the Bible (2 Timothy 3 v5) the apostle Paul describes the nature of people in the last days. In his description, he warns of people who are characterized as “having a form of godliness" *. Paul then issues this command: “Have nothing to do with such people.”

Those who have a form of godliness are those who make an outward display of religion. They present themselves as godly, but it is all for show. There is no power behind their religion, as evidenced in the fact that their lives are unchanged. They speak of God and live in sin, and they are fine with that arrangement. As commentator Charles Ellicott wrote, “These, by claiming the title of Christians, wearing before men the uniform of Christ, but by their lives dishonouring His name, do the gravest injury to the holy Christian cause”.

* I would suggest that the gun promoting "religious" folk fall into that category. There will be some people for whom the "thoughts and prayers" response is genuine and so we need to be careful not to group everyone under the same redneck/gun toting category.

From very different starting points we may both agree that the ‘thoughts and prayers’ reflex is shallow nonsense - but even if some of these bible bashing gun promoters believe what they say, I don’t see why they should be applauded.

They are offering a superstitious crutch where hard headed (and brave) anti gun laws are needed. Face down the lobby, don’t fall back on meaningless pap when more kids have been shot!

[JamesWales]

Re: Thoughts and Prayers.........again.........x25

From very different starting points we may both agree that the ‘thoughts and prayers’ reflex is shallow nonsense - but even if some of these bible bashing gun promoters believe what they say, I don’t see why they should be applauded.

They are offering a superstitious crutch where hard headed (and brave) anti gun laws are needed. Face down the lobby, don’t fall back on meaningless pap when more kids have been shot!

Americas gun laws are ridiculous, we all know that, particularly in relation to assault rifles.

But that doesn't change the fact that offering prayers to victims families (in a pretty religious place) is a reasonable statement in the immediate aftermath of a disaster. What did our politicians say after three people were stabbed to death in Nottingham, or the other occasions of mass stabbings? I suspect "thoughts were with the victims families" then too.

It doesn't change the elephant in the room about gun policy, but the idea that politicians should instantly politicize tragedies isn't right in my opinion

Aside from anything else, this kid had been spoken to about murder threats before apparently, so for a politician to instantly talk about gun laws would lend people to argue they are trying to distract from the failure of intervention in this particular perpetrator.

[lardy]

Re: Thoughts and Prayers.........again.........x25

I would be in agreement with you on the banning of assault weapons, but lawmakers are also community representatives and offering condolences in the light of a tragic event that has happened literally hours earlier is also pretty standard behaviour.

They're not 'also' offering condolences. They are 'only' offering condolences. Assault weapons were banned until 2004, when the republicans under Bush failed to extend it. Mass shootings became commonplace after this.

The republicans blocked a ban on them last year.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senate-republicans-block-assault-style-weapons-ban-mass-shootings-rise-2023-12-06/

This year, the majority republican nominated Supreme Court chose not to step in to ban assault weapons in Illinois

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/supreme-court-illinois-assault-weapons-ban-right-to-bear-arms-rcna153971

There's loads more examples like this. That's why people are sick of 'thoughts and prayers' and no action.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/07/texas-mall-shooting-ted-cruz-response-backlash

[lardy]

Re: Thoughts and Prayers.........again.........x25

Americas gun laws are ridiculous, we all know that, particularly in relation to assault rifles.

But that doesn't change the fact that offering prayers to victims families (in a pretty religious place) is a reasonable statement in the immediate aftermath of a disaster. What did our politicians say after three people were stabbed to death in Nottingham, or the other occasions of mass stabbings? I suspect "thoughts were with the victims families" then too.

It doesn't change the elephant in the room about gun policy, but the idea that politicians should instantly politicize tragedies isn't right in my opinion

Aside from anything else, this kid had been spoken to about murder threats before apparently, so for a politician to instantly talk about gun laws would lend people to argue they are trying to distract from the failure of intervention in this particular perpetrator.

Our politicians changed the law after Dunblane.

https://theweek.com/100174/what-happened-at-dunblane

Or do you think they were just 'politizing' it too?

[lardy]

Re: Thoughts and Prayers.........again.........x25

I'm not, Im replying to Sludge, about an event that happened 25 years ago, as you well know

Whoosh

[JamesWales]

Re: Thoughts and Prayers.........again.........x25

Our politicians changed the law after Dunblane.

https://theweek.com/100174/what-happened-at-dunblane

Or do you think they were just 'politizing' it too?

They didn't do it hours after did they? And the UK is not the US. If you think it is, then no wonder you don't get what is happening. There isnt hundreds of years of constitution behind it, millions of guns in circulation or widespread belief in the right to bear arms.

[JamesWales]

Re: Thoughts and Prayers.........again.........x25

They're not 'also' offering condolences. They are 'only' offering condolences. Assault weapons were banned until 2004, when the republicans under Bush failed to extend it. Mass shootings became commonplace after this.

The republicans blocked a ban on them last year.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senate-republicans-block-assault-style-weapons-ban-mass-shootings-rise-2023-12-06/

This year, the majority republican nominated Supreme Court chose not to step in to ban assault weapons in Illinois

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/supreme-court-illinois-assault-weapons-ban-right-to-bear-arms-rcna153971

There's loads more examples like this. That's why people are sick of 'thoughts and prayers' and no action.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ponse-backlash

I entirely support banning assault weapons and completely agree with you. But people offering condolences after people have been murdered is not uncommon. You just want them to politicize it the way you see it. But as I said, in this case the person was "on a watchlist" so maybe that is where it should be politized. Stop suggesting there is some simple solution and that offering condolences after a situation is somehow an abomination, when it plainly isn't.

[JamesWales]

Re: Thoughts and Prayers.........again.........x25

Whoosh

There's no whoosh about it. You either misread it or made a deliberate attempt to mislead.

[JamesWales]

Re: Thoughts and Prayers.........again.........x25

They're not 'also' offering condolences. They are 'only' offering condolences. Assault weapons were banned until 2004, when the republicans under Bush failed to extend it. Mass shootings became commonplace after this.

The republicans blocked a ban on them last year.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senate-republicans-block-assault-style-weapons-ban-mass-shootings-rise-2023-12-06/

This year, the majority republican nominated Supreme Court chose not to step in to ban assault weapons in Illinois

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/supreme-court-illinois-assault-weapons-ban-right-to-bear-arms-rcna153971

There's loads more examples like this. That's why people are sick of 'thoughts and prayers' and no action.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ponse-backlash

I said they are also community representatives. Which they are. And it's pretty normal to offer condolences to the victims after such an event, wherever in the world it is.

I'm sure you were against the instant politicization of events after the Southport stabbings, and yet you are clamouring for it here within the same timeframe, even though the facts arent known and the blood isn't dry.

[lardy]

Re: Thoughts and Prayers.........again.........x25

I said they are also community representatives. Which they are. And it's pretty normal to offer condolences to the victims after such an event, wherever in the world it is.

I'm sure you were against the instant politicization of events after the Southport stabbings, and yet you are clamouring for it here within the same timeframe, even though the facts arent known and the blood isn't dry.

I guarantee you will not find a post by me like that about the Southport stabbings. Feel free to search my history

The 'whoosh' exchange was me highlighting the irony in your reply, sorry that you missed it.

Offering condolences is fine. Offering condolences and doing nothing to help, and in fact doing more to make it worse, when you are literally the only people who can do something about it, is not fine.

There are hundreds of school shootings in the US. We can use the facts of any of those if you're worried that the blood isn't dry enough on this one.

[JamesWales]

Re: Thoughts and Prayers.........again.........x25

I guarantee you will not find a post by me like that about the Southport stabbings. Feel free to search my history

The 'whoosh' exchange was me highlighting the irony in your reply, sorry that you missed it.

Offering condolences is fine. Offering condolences and doing nothing to help, and in fact doing more to make it worse, when you are literally the only people who can do something about it, is not fine.

There are hundreds of school shootings in the US. We can use the facts of any of those if you're worried that the blood isn't dry enough on this one.

Glad you agree that offering condolences is fine. That's my point.

I think we both agree that the fact assault weapons are legal is also a fkn disgrace, even within the context of the right to bear arms. I've literally said that already. So we agree there too.

But instantly demanding they be banned when one is used in a mass shooting when millions own and support their ownership just won't work. I wish it would and it would in other countries but it plainly isn't there. The polarisation is massive and having a default setting of politicizing it makes a solution less not more likely.

Theres a tonne of other issues too. Why is this happening more often? Why him? Was there a motive? Why the loose relationship between gun ownership and murders within states? What's the legal definition of arms? What to do with the millions in circulation? Etc etc.

I know you aren't saying its a simple thing, but it really isn't. We all wish it was, but it's not and condemning someone offering condolences after a tragic event doesn't make a solution any closer.

[lardy]

Re: Thoughts and Prayers.........again.........x25

You say you want strong gun laws but you're vigorously defending the exact people who are working against it happening, even though there's huge public support for it.

I'll admit, your posts in this thread totally baffle me. You seem to be deliberately ignoring that these are the law makers

[JamesWales]

Re: Thoughts and Prayers.........again.........x25

You say you want strong gun laws but you're vigorously defending the exact people who are working against it happening, even though there's huge public support for it.

I'll admit, your posts in this thread totally baffle me. You seem to be deliberately ignoring that these are the law makers

No, I'm saying it's a reasonable position to offer condolences to victims families in the immediate aftermath of a tragic event.

[lardy]

Re: Thoughts and Prayers.........again.........x25

No, I'm saying it's a reasonable position to offer condolences to victims families in the immediate aftermath of a tragic event.

And it was introduced to the thread, not because of the sentiment but because of who was saying it.

Anyway, just waiting for your withdrawal of your Southport stabbing thread comment about me and we can wrap this up.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Thoughts and Prayers.........again.........x25

Some lady being completely naive.

https://x.com/i/status/1831412294049309103