California

[Heathblue]

Re: California

I was just giving Gluey a bit of political froth and banter back. He was obviously fishing and it felt rude not to have a nibble.

However thanks for the clarification re states and federal government. Now I know the state governor controls and directs ICE and the other agencies that provoked the riots I may have to have a re-think.

Biden certainly has a very long charge sheet - but when it comes to Ukraine and Gaza he’s neck and neck with Trump (both terms) when it comes to rewarding murderous autocrats, excusing genocide and undermining the last vestiges of international law!

I was being mischievous of course, I think I got off lightly, I was expecting a right bollocking from you 😂😂😂

[Coyote]

Re: California

Trump and the protesters deserve each other. Trump whipping it up with talks of insurrection(how very ironic). Morons on the street protesting/rioting while carrying mexican flags, as if they are determined to play up to the 'dangerous invaders' tag that trump has put on them. Can't see this ending well.

I feel similarly, but with a little bit of sympathy for the protestors. Trump and his vociferous, flagrant ineptitude is what has created this, so I don't begrudge the people of LA, as well as across the US for being pissed off at their country playing footsie with potential fascism. Whether or not Trump is or isn't a fascist isn't relevant to me because the fact is, he's getting far too close to it for it to be comfortable for my liking, and as such, I don't blame people for taking a stand against him. As much as I despise Starmer and the current Labour government, I can say with confidence that they aren't a fascist regime, but merely pawns of neoliberal hyper-capitalism. It's like comparing a D- essay to someone taking a shit on the paper and presenting it as their essay.

The US is a failed state and brought it upon itself with its inability to accept criticism through its bombast arrogance.

[JamesWales]

Re: California

Hasn't he just nipped a riot in the bud? Isn't that what we praised Starmer for last summer?

Why should the looting of shops etc be tolerated and violence against officers doing their job?

Of course there is politics at play, there's issues of precedence and state rights but putting that aside most will be glad to not see the city burning. This week at least.

Not for the first time, I find these comparisons to fascism absolutely absurd.

[Dorcus]

Re: California

I feel similarly, but with a little bit of sympathy for the protestors. Trump and his vociferous, flagrant ineptitude is what has created this, so I don't begrudge the people of LA, as well as across the US for being pissed off at their country playing footsie with potential fascism. Whether or not Trump is or isn't a fascist isn't relevant to me because the fact is, he's getting far too close to it for it to be comfortable for my liking, and as such, I don't blame people for taking a stand against him. As much as I despise Starmer and the current Labour government, I can say with confidence that they aren't a fascist regime, but merely pawns of neoliberal hyper-capitalism. It's like comparing a D- essay to someone taking a shit on the paper and presenting it as their essay.

The US is a failed state and brought it upon itself with its inability to accept criticism through its bombast arrogance.

Great post! 👍

[Wash DC Blue]

Re: California

I’m a proponent of Hispanic people finding a quick path to legalization and then citizenship.
In my experience they are lovely and work a ton harder than anyone I know is capable of.

They have been hugely maligned due to a small minority of gangbangers.

My beef is with the radical left/antifa or whatever you want to call its involvement.
Palestine flags present just show that it is hijacked people determined to attack the west and using this unrest as another tool.

It could be BLM and there will be some twat there wearing a keffiyeh.

It’s nothing to do with Latinos for these people just a battle against Western Civilization.

No better than the January 6th rioters.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: California

Hasn't he just nipped a riot in the bud? Isn't that what we praised Starmer for last summer?

Why should the looting of shops etc be tolerated and violence against officers doing their job?

Of course there is politics at play, there's issues of precedence and state rights but putting that aside most will be glad to not see the city burning. This week at least.

Not for the first time, I find these comparisons to fascism absolutely absurd.

Remember how the links between Trump and Epstein had become a talking point last week? No one’s talking about them now are they.

I find it absurd that you have spent the last few years denying the possibility that we’re seeing instances of fascism in the USA and certain countries in Europe.

[Wales-Bales]

Re: California

It looks like the Los Angeles Mayor is also playing footsie with potential fascism.

[Dorcus]

Re: California

I’m a proponent of Hispanic people finding a quick path to legalization and then citizenship.
In my experience they are lovely and work a ton harder than anyone I know is capable of.

They have been hugely maligned due to a small minority of gangbangers.

My beef is with the radical left/antifa or whatever you want to call its involvement.
Palestine flags present just show that it is hijacked people determined to attack the west and using this unrest as another tool.

It could be BLM and there will be some twat there wearing a keffiyeh.

It’s nothing to do with Latinos for these people just a battle against Western Civilization.

No better than the January 6th rioters.

But there is a huge problem with Western values. There's no point ignoring it.

[JamesWales]

Re: California

Remember how the links between Trump and Epstein had become a talking point last week? No one’s talking about them now are they.

I find it absurd that you have spent the last few years denying the possibility that we’re seeing instances of fascism in the USA and certain countries in Europe.

I should imagine the first point is to do with various defamation laws, I don't know. I do know that his opponents would have done anything to stop him running for president last year, so who knows.

On the second point, it's all cherry picking. Fascism isn't a handful of examples, it's a comprehensive totalitarian system. Taking individual examples, there's examples of "fascism" in almost any country, especially in terms of quelling riots.

This isn't fascism. It's politics. Between political opponents. It's more akin to the COVID rows between Wales/Scotland and Westminster a few years ago.

I do understand the point people are trying to mak, I just think it's a massive overreach

[the other bob wilson]

Re: California

I should imagine the first point is to do with various defamation laws, I don't know. I do know that his opponents would have done anything to stop him running for president last year, so who knows.

On the second point, it's all cherry picking. Fascism isn't a handful of examples, it's a comprehensive totalitarian system. Taking individual examples, there's examples of "fascism" in almost any country, especially in terms of quelling riots.

This isn't fascism. It's politics. Between political opponents. It's more akin to the COVID rows between Wales/Scotland and Westminster a few years ago.

I do understand the point people are trying to mak, I just think it's a massive overreach

You’re being proved wrong on this - watch the first ten minutes of this and listen to the 14 signs of fascism as defined by a politically neutral organization as far as I’m aware. It’s beyond argument now that Trump ticks the boxes on 70-80 % of those 14 points.

[JamesWales]

Re: California

You’re being proved wrong on this - watch the first ten minutes of this and listen to the 14 signs of fascism as defined by a politically neutral organization as far as I’m aware. It’s beyond argument now that Trump ticks the boxes on 70-80 % of those 14 points.

I just disagree almost entirely. I find Alastair Campbell genuinely one of the most dislikeable characters in politics and gus hypocrisy is off the scale given he wanted to cancel a democrat vote. Rory Stewart is a more nuanced and interesting character but they are both on the same side in their rather hysterical takes on this issue and it clouds the rational criticisms of Trump that absolutely are valid.

Its no different to people claiming the EU is a communist, that Biden is a radical lefty or that Starmer is some globalist puppet paid by Jews or whatever.

They just ignore what they want and amplify what they want to give an unbalanced picture. For a start, they totally dismiss the riots and damage and how severe some of these have been in recent years. They dismiss immigration concerns (they probably own at least four houses between them) and ignore attacks on police etc and then take a giant leap to conclude the national guard being involved as being fascist. It isn't.

There's an issue of state rights and responsibility here and the state v federal govt argument. A fascist would want to accumulate power at the federal level. But let's look at another thing he would have been slammed for; when he granted states the power over abortion laws. Controversial, yes. But the absolute opposite of fascism, giving individual states and electoral therein to determine that policy.

It is an overreach (probably). It is definitely political, about who ultimately controls California. It is also confrontational. It's also (probably) effective. I listened to a Newsom speech yesterday that also ticks most of those definitions. He praised the police, praised a curfew, talked about American heroes and things. But because he is a Democrat, the presentation of him being a fascist is never considered. (He isn't either of course).

Look, Trump is a unique and very temperamental character. He's potentially dangerous and inflammatory, but these endless exclamations of "fascism!" are just daft, and a dishonourable liar like Alastair Campbell clutching his pearls about it makes it seem even less realistic.

People are free to protest. They aren't free to set fire to cars and loot and someone like Trump will react to that more forcefully than others and make the same political points that others did about the capitol riots.

[Wales-Bales]

Re: California

You’re being proved wrong on this

Why did Mayor Bass have to declare a curfew just a few hours after Ally & Rory were saying everything was very peaceful in LA?

[the other bob wilson]

Re: California

Why did Mayor Bass have to declare a curfew just a few hours after Ally & Rory were saying everything was very peaceful in LA?

A curfew in a very small area of a very large city.

[Wales-Bales]

Re: California

A curfew in a very small area of a very large city.

That's where the "peaceful" rioters were!

[the other bob wilson]

Re: California

I just disagree almost entirely. I find Alastair Campbell genuinely one of the most dislikeable characters in politics and gus hypocrisy is off the scale given he wanted to cancel a democrat vote. Rory Stewart is a more nuanced and interesting character but they are both on the same side in their rather hysterical takes on this issue and it clouds the rational criticisms of Trump that absolutely are valid.

Its no different to people claiming the EU is a communist, that Biden is a radical lefty or that Starmer is some globalist puppet paid by Jews or whatever.

They just ignore what they want and amplify what they want to give an unbalanced picture. For a start, they totally dismiss the riots and damage and how severe some of these have been in recent years. They dismiss immigration concerns (they probably own at least four houses between them) and ignore attacks on police etc and then take a giant leap to conclude the national guard being involved as being fascist. It isn't.

There's an issue of state rights and responsibility here and the state v federal govt argument. A fascist would want to accumulate power at the federal level. But let's look at another thing he would have been slammed for; when he granted states the power over abortion laws. Controversial, yes. But the absolute opposite of fascism, giving individual states and electoral therein to determine that policy.

It is an overreach (probably). It is definitely political, about who ultimately controls California. It is also confrontational. It's also (probably) effective. I listened to a Newsom speech yesterday that also ticks most of those definitions. He praised the police, praised a curfew, talked about American heroes and things. But because he is a Democrat, the presentation of him being a fascist is never considered. (He isn't either of course).

Look, Trump is a unique and very temperamental character. He's potentially dangerous and inflammatory, but these endless exclamations of "fascism!" are just daft, and a dishonourable liar like Alastair Campbell clutching his pearls about it makes it seem even less realistic.

People are free to protest. They aren't free to set fire to cars and loot and someone like Trump will react to that more forcefully than others and make the same political points that others did about the capitol riots.

Playing the man not the ball then. I knew you’d say something like that about Campbell, but his only relevance in the point I’m making is that he lists the 14 points about Fascism. His answers don’t matter, but the questions he recites do.