Manchester terrorist attack.

[jon1959]

Re: Manchester terrorist attack.

No, you just come up with excuse after excuse, and cannot accept any issue with the marches whatsoever, despite it making groups fearful, despite mass support for proscribed groups, despite them occuring on the same day as synagogue terrorist attacks, despite chants for the eradication of Israel, despite death to the IDF chants, police being assaulted. Its a minority, but the failure to recognize the issues speak volumes.

You cannot seem to fathom any of this as being remotely an issue because you aren't personally impacted and it's a cause you personally support.

I have given you my personal experiences of the Palestine marches. You have given me a Daily Mail editorial.

[JamesWales]

Re: Manchester terrorist attack.

I have given you my personal experiences of the Palestine marches. You have given me a Daily Mail editorial.

Being concerned about things like support for proscribed groups, police assaults, death chants and antisemitism isn't a Daily Mail article, and that cheap argument isn't as powerful as you think. However, if you must make it, I'll just say you sound like a Socialist Worker editorial. I note they were referenced by channel four news last night as still holding protests on the second anniversary of Oct 7th. The reality most rational people can see when some protestors cross a line.

No, I haven't attended any matches. I wouldnt. I referenced going to three anti Iraq war marches to demonstrate that I will attend peace marches, but my personal experience of the pro Palestine marches in Cardiff, and what I have seen elsewhere is that peace isn't that high up the agenda, although no doubt it is the prime issue for many attending. So, no, I wouldn't touch the pro Palestine marches at all.

The journalist Matthew Syed attended one last week thougg, here is his take, which I found pretty powerful.

https://x.com/TimesRadio/status/1974791005665952184

I am very happy to reiterate this is not the majority, and I wouldn't go as far as some to label them "hate marches"but there are serious issues.

[jon1959]

Re: Manchester terrorist attack.

[Elwood Blues]

Re: Manchester terrorist attack.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/R-G9hpeCzGo

Sadly jon there is as much chance of a single democratic state shared by Palestinians and Jews as which I think this sincere gentleman is suggesting is as likely as a snowball surviving a few seconds in hell.

Imperfect and still unlikely though it is a two state solution is far more realistic.

And anyway I believe many ( but not all) of those who chant this on these marches are not thinking of including Jews in this new single state.

As many Jews who use the same slogan on their side do not want any Palestinians.

[jon1959]

Re: Manchester terrorist attack.

Sadly jon there is as much chance of a single democratic state shared by Palestinians and Jews as which I think this sincere gentleman is suggesting is as likely as a snowball surviving a few seconds in hell.

Imperfect and still unlikely though it is a two state solution is far more realistic.

And anyway I believe many ( but not all) of those who chant this on these marches are not thinking of including Jews in this new single state.

As many Jews who use the same slogan on their side do not want any Palestinians.

We had a long debate about the Two State Solution on this board about 10-12 years ago during a previous 'war' on Gaza. I remember Feedback at the time advocating for a Single State as even then (and probably much earlier - 20/25 years ago) the basis for Two States had been destroyed by settlement expansion, walls, roads across the West Bank that could only be used by Israelis, military zones, destruction of farms and aquifers.... and more.

At that time I was still naively supportive of Two States side-by-side as it was the preferred outcome of the international community. I thought it at least had majority diplomatic support. But that has counted for nothing as Israel (with full support from the USA) has changed the facts on the ground even more so that even a fragmented Bantustan state is impossible. Or at least impossible without creating a contiguous Palestinian territory on the 1967 borders - with the settlements and the IDF removed. The backlash against removing 5000 settlers from Gaza 20 years ago was massive. Removing 750,000 from the West Bank is fantasy.

But strangely Starmer, Macron and most other 'western' leaders have very recently rediscovered the Two State Solution that they should have been promoting and enabling for decades. It sounds mildly progressive, but none of them have any intention of making it a reality - it remains a political fig leaf on their collective support for the Zionist Greater Israel project Netanyahu is heading. And in all the discussions on a peace process, whether Blair-Trump, Starmer-Macron or Egypt, the Palestinians have been excluded and airbrushed out of the picture.

[Elwood Blues]

Re: Manchester terrorist attack.

We had a long debate about the Two State Solution on this board about 10-12 years ago during a previous 'war' on Gaza. I remember Feedback at the time advocating for a Single State as even then (and probably much earlier - 20/25 years ago) the basis for Two States had been destroyed by settlement expansion, walls, roads across the West Bank that could only be used by Israelis, military zones, destruction of farms and aquifers.... and more.

At that time I was still naively supportive of Two States side-by-side as it was the preferred outcome of the international community. I thought it at least had majority diplomatic support. But that has counted for nothing as Israel (with full support from the USA) has changed the facts on the ground even more so that even a fragmented Bantustan state is impossible. Or at least impossible without creating a contiguous Palestinian territory on the 1967 borders - with the settlements and the IDF removed. The backlash against removing 5000 settlers from Gaza 20 years ago was massive. Removing 750,000 from the West Bank is fantasy.

But strangely Starmer, Macron and most other 'western' leaders have very recently rediscovered the Two State Solution that they should have been promoting and enabling for decades. It sounds mildly progressive, but none of them have any intention of making it a reality - it remains a political fig leaf on their collective support for the Zionist Greater Israel project Netanyahu is heading. And in all the discussions on a peace process, whether Blair-Trump, Starmer-Macron or Egypt, the Palestinians have been excluded and airbrushed out of the picture.

From what yI know of the situation I cannot disagree with your analysis Jon

But......


If a two state solution will not work, how the hell will a single state solution??????

Oh and I left out of my original post my feeling that both sides should avoid 'The River to the sea' chant. It has too many different interpretations now.

[Elwood Blues]

Re: Manchester terrorist attack.

You're right, there's always some wherever you are

You mean there are always some, ( or perhaps many?) with a different view which should be respected?

[William Treseder]

Re: Manchester terrorist attack.

List in the Guardian today of all the children killed in Israel's Gaza offensive, 18457 at time of writing

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng...st-of-war-dead

How do you think Israel should have reacted to the atrocities 2 yrs ago? By the way, I don’t agree with the violence from either side, but I’m interested to hear your take on this.

[jon1959]

Re: Manchester terrorist attack.

From what yI know of the situation I cannot disagree with your analysis Jon

But......


If a two state solution will not work, how the hell will a single state solution??????

Oh and I left out of my original post my feeling that both sides should avoid 'The River to the sea' chant. It has too many different interpretations now.

Very difficult. There are no easy 'day after' solutions. But from what I have read and heard, the consensus in Palestinian civil society is moving strongly away from support for Two States towards advocacy for a single democratic state.

There are different form this could take - but bi-nationalism within a single border, with equal rights although with some separation of some institutions might be the most viable model. Maybe a pipe dream - but less of one than the alternatives.

I have gone back to reading Hannah Ardent in the past year - an inspirational woman who was initially an advocate for a type of social Zionism (not the political Zionism that is now the official state ideology of Israel - and supported by many evangelical Christians and until recently the whole MAGA movement). She became very disillusioned with the early Israeli state because of its abuse of the Palestinian people, and fell out with Ben-Gurion. But continued to argue for a single democratic state that could be a 'homeland' for both Jews and indigenous Arabs who were Muslim or Christian or neither. It is a strand of political thought that has been suppressed over the past 60 years - but given the changing attitudes amongst Jewish people in the USA it may get a new lease of life! I hope so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Arendt

[jon1959]

Re: Manchester terrorist attack.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/18/hannah-arendt-prize-masha-gessen-israel-gaza-essay

[Elwood Blues]

Re: Manchester terrorist attack.

Very difficult. There are no easy 'day after' solutions. But from what I have read and heard, the consensus in Palestinian civil society is moving strongly away from support for Two States towards advocacy for a single democratic state.

There are different form this could take - but bi-nationalism within a single border, with equal rights although with some separation of some institutions might be the most viable model. Maybe a pipe dream - but less of one than the alternatives.

I have gone back to reading Hannah Ardent in the past year - an inspirational woman who was initially an advocate for a type of social Zionism (not the political Zionism that is now the official state ideology of Israel - and supported by many evangelical Christians and until recently the whole MAGA movement). She became very disillusioned with the early Israeli state because of its abuse of the Palestinian people, and fell out with Ben-Gurion. But continued to argue for a single democratic state that could be a 'homeland' for both Jews and indigenous Arabs who were Muslim or Christian or neither. It is a strand of political thought that has been suppressed over the past 60 years - but given the changing attitudes amongst Jewish people in the USA it may get a new lease of life! I hope so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Arendt

In an ideal world a one state solution would be good. But even if there is support in Palestine for a single state they would have to convince a majority of Jews.

Good luck with that one.

I must admit to never having read Hannah Ardent. Must do so some day.

My much delayed history degree (only 50 years late!) is now back in the 15th - 28th century,.

I will try to do more recent stuff myself in the coming months.

But I have my first tutorial of the year tonight so must go.

Digression over.

[Heathblue]

Re: Manchester terrorist attack.

You daft little jelly

I was expecting something a little more aggressive

[Dorcus]

Re: Manchester terrorist attack.

You mean there are always some, ( or perhaps many?) with a different view which should be respected?

No not quite: you've put words in my mouth there; sincerely meant though I'm sure.

[jon1959]

Re: Manchester terrorist attack.

In an ideal world a one state solution would be good. But even if there is support in Palestine for a single state they would have to convince a majority of Jews.

Good luck with that one.

I must admit to never having read Hannah Ardent. Must do so some day.

My much delayed history degree (only 50 years late!) is now back in the 15th - 28th century,.

I will try to do more recent stuff myself in the coming months.

But I have my first tutorial of the year tonight so must go.

Digression over.

Interesting. Is that an online degree (OU)?

[Elwood Blues]

Re: Manchester terrorist attack.

Interesting. Is that an online degree (OU)?

Yes with the OU I am doing it over 6 Years, although I have had to defer years twice through illness

Currently half way through and just started year 4 covering 1500-1780 (last year I did 1780-2914).

Just got to keep my Dicky ticker going for a few years longer!