So it's National Insurance then

[Swiss Peter]

Re: So it's National Insurance then

Very interesting. If true there is not a single commentator who has analysed the implications in such detail. I presume the upshot of today's plan will mean those in residential care will still be required to sell their homes to pay for their care.

If that is the case I cannot understand why so much money is required to pay for a system that is not very much different (except for some tinkering around the edges) to the present arrangements.

Looks like the media are starting to provide the analysis which Re-sign Carl Dale has helpfully set out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58442991

[lardy]

Re: So it's National Insurance then

Ive never understood the argument that your house has to be sold of to pay for care

these people have paid tax's and NI all their lives, yes they own a home, but surely paying NI and tax's for 50 years mean they have paid enough into the " pot " to not have their home sold from under them

I must have been in my early 20's when I first heard of this, a colleague was angry that his parents were heading into a home, he had been told they had to sell their home ( they had built it themselves down in Cornwall overlooking a beach ) this couple had both worked till retirement ( he was a doctor and she worked as a school nurse giving MMR jabs around Cornwall ) of course they had paid a lot in to the pot, yet were having the house taken away to fund the care home

I feel bad for people in that situation. Chances are, I'll be in that situation myself one day.

But realistically, how can 'the pot' completely support a beautiful beachfront property and care home costs?

When you say the house was taken away, was it being repossessed by the mortgage company?

[Doucas]

Re: So it's National Insurance then

Because they have paid into the system for their WORKING lives.
It’ should be owed to them.
Their frugality or smart investments should go to what the **** they want.

Young people are going to work all their lives for lower wages, worse housing, worse pensions and for longer so I really don't care if for once the older generation takes a hit.

[19bluebirds27]

Re: So it's National Insurance then

I feel bad for people in that situation. Chances are, I'll be in that situation myself one day.

But realistically, how can 'the pot' completely support a beautiful beachfront property and care home costs?

When you say the house was taken away, was it being repossessed by the mortgage company?

Because they owned a home they had to use the equity on this home to fund their care - it’s not free to them.
How bad would they have felt in their final years knowing this has happened and leave little to pass on
Then there are people who have lived off the state forever and continue to get that care for free.

[lardy]

Re: So it's National Insurance then

Because they owned a home they had to use the equity on this home to fund their care - it’s not free to them.
How bad would they have felt in their final years knowing this has happened and leave little to pass on
Then there are people who have lived off the state forever and continue to get that care for free.

Yes I see your point here

[bluesp]

Re: So it's National Insurance then

You need to contact Age Cymru to hurry up this matter

Does your mother wish to stay at home ?

0300 303 4498

If you can get hold of Simon or guto they will help you

Thanks Sludge, she has been in a care home since May last year. I spoke with Age Cymru a few weeks ago, they were really helpful in helping make sense of the system after the council confused the hell out of me. We are looking at the deferred payment agreement so we don't have to sell her house. Do you think Age Cymru can kick the council up the arse then?

[IanD]

Re: So it's National Insurance then

Assuming that this idea is a re-invented version of changes proposed in 2015 (which it seems to be), the idea that no-one will pay more than £85,000 is a myth, unfortunately - but it's a great headline!

I'm an IFA specialising in retirement / later life planning, and the proposal seems to be along the lines of ...

Let's say someone's paying £60,000pa (which is about the rate for a good quality care home).

Firstly, £12-£14,000 of this £60,000 will be treated as 'hotel costs' (food and accommodation) so immediately only around £47,000 will be counted towards the 'cap'.

Secondly, the system needs to be set up to avoid it being abused ... if it's all fully paid for when someone hits the 'cap', then we there would be a clamour to book mum and dad the flashest, nicest - and most expensive care home possible. So the amount that counts toward the 'cap' will be a 'reasonable' one. This looks like it's based on what the local authority pay for their care homes; somewhere in the region of £35,000pa.

So, forget that someone's paying £60,000 - Boris reckons £35,000 is what's 'reasonable' to pay (although I've not met any self-funder able to get a half decent care home for anywhere near this), and we need to deduct £13,000 for hotel costs. Therefore of the £60,000 paid, only around £22,000 will only count to this £85,000 'cap'.

To hit the £85,000 'cap' on care, someone paying £60,000pa would need to have actually paid around four years (longer than the average spell in a care home incidentally) - so around £240,000.

After this point, Bozza will step in and pay what they feel is a reasonable element towards the 'care' cost (ie £22,000 per year of the £60,000).

I've got too much time on my hands ... bring back the football!!!

And, as I understand it, there is no backdating of care costs. So, my dad already in care for 18 months, won't have the care-not-food-and-accomodation element count towards the £85,000 until 2023. In England, government will pay care costs when total asset value is less than £20k. Currently that figure is £23,250 so a hidden reduction (£50k in Wales, I think). An as yet undisclosed care subsidy will apply in England between £20,001 and £100,000 of asset value. So, government could pay just 5% of care costs. No-one knows, even though Parliament is due to vote on it today. The headline figure of £85k maximum lifetime care payment by an individual is just spin. May as well paint it as a slogan on the side of a bus.
Anyone living in UK that thinks we have a NationalHS is also being misled. We have a fragmented, confusing, inefficient and, at times, dysfunctional and expensive system.....that isn't integrated with social care. My dad's advice of "don't get old" stands true. Best pass on any assets to the offspring whilst you can. You can't take it with you as care providers will have taken it first.

[IanD]

Re: So it's National Insurance then

Thanks Sludge, she has been in a care home since May last year. I spoke with Age Cymru a few weeks ago, they were really helpful in helping make sense of the system after the council confused the hell out of me. We are looking at the deferred payment agreement so we don't have to sell her house. Do you think Age Cymru can kick the council up the arse then?

Have you got Power of Attorney set up? A shed load of paperwork but very, very useful when it comes to any financial dealings such as deferred payment. Also, depending on the value of the house, care costs can outstrip asset value in a matter of years.4 years on an average house. I looked into deffered payment for my dad. £350 in legal fees to set up. Plus an annual charge equivelant to 1.5% for ongoing fees/interest payable to the council on sale. This is in England (Dudley) last checked 18 months ago. Costs will vary across councils. Important that any siblings understand that the council will have a financial interest in the house (it is a type of equity release) and that all understand the financial arrangements your mum is setting up. I found Cardiff Council most helpful. Bad news is that you have to be on the ball to be effective in the process with understanding the system the main challenge. Age Cymru are very good at pointing in the right direction.
Good luck.

[life on mars]

Re: So it's National Insurance then

Unless its funded from the public purse , taxpayers or as other countries do through separate insurance , as you righty point out folk are living and working longer that pulls on the purse strings as the elderly need greater support and care , we can't have it all ways Covid health funding ,vaccines , job / business support , has tipped the world of government funding on its head , extreme measure for extreme times .

I note the triple lock is going to be suspended or scrapped , this is a big balancing act .

And there is debate about one tax , however in 2023 the levy will appear separated on wage slips as a health levy , for me I want to see the overall of the NHS and Social Care in which is coming in a bill as you have to have a plan to spend this in the right places there is so much waste and abuse of the NHS services because the services is free in its ( entirety unlike a lot of other countries where you get basic minimum health care free and pay insurance thereafter for social care ie Italy and Germany to name two ).

The big move for me would be to drag the social care back under the NHS umbrella , get rid of private companies running social care , to ensure we get the buck we deserve not for someone to profit from , and critically pay those carers a decent wage

[Vindec]

Re: So it's National Insurance then

Have you got Power of Attorney set up? A shed load of paperwork but very, very useful when it comes to any financial dealings such as deferred payment. Also, depending on the value of the house, care costs can outstrip asset value in a matter of years.4 years on an average house. I looked into deffered payment for my dad. £350 in legal fees to set up. Plus an annual charge equivelant to 1.5% for ongoing fees/interest payable to the council on sale. This is in England (Dudley) last checked 18 months ago. Costs will vary across councils. Important that any siblings understand that the council will have a financial interest in the house (it is a type of equity release) and that all understand the financial arrangements your mum is setting up. I found Cardiff Council most helpful. Bad news is that you have to be on the ball to be effective in the process with understanding the system the main challenge. Age Cymru are very good at pointing in the right direction.
Good luck.

If your mother and father are still alive but your mother is in a care home isn't the assumption made that only your mother's share of the house (50% assuming tenants in common) is taken into consideration? Furthermore would your father be required to sell the house he lives if your mother dies before him?

Sorry for the daft question but I am trying to get to grips with my understanding of the past and present situation because things must have changed since I was involved in this issue for my parents.

[bluesp]

Re: So it's National Insurance then

Have you got Power of Attorney set up? A shed load of paperwork but very, very useful when it comes to any financial dealings such as deferred payment. Also, depending on the value of the house, care costs can outstrip asset value in a matter of years.4 years on an average house. I looked into deffered payment for my dad. £350 in legal fees to set up. Plus an annual charge equivelant to 1.5% for ongoing fees/interest payable to the council on sale. This is in England (Dudley) last checked 18 months ago. Costs will vary across councils. Important that any siblings understand that the council will have a financial interest in the house (it is a type of equity release) and that all understand the financial arrangements your mum is setting up. I found Cardiff Council most helpful. Bad news is that you have to be on the ball to be effective in the process with understanding the system the main challenge. Age Cymru are very good at pointing in the right direction.
Good luck.

Yes fortunately we have POA in place, before my mum's dementia set in.
With Cardiff there's a £330 set up charge, then no interest providing you pay back with 56 days of the end of the contract. The house is in a holiday area so we are renting it out to help with her funding, trying hard to avoid selling it as it's an investment for myself and brothers in the long run as well as generating income now.
Thank you

[Rjk]

Re: So it's National Insurance then

something always doesn't seem to add up with care in this country. the costs are always eye watering. thousands per week. that can wipe through a value of a house in a couple of years.
yet at the same time there is no money to pay the carers adequately, they are hugely stressed and leaving the industry in droves.

where does it all go?

I don't know how to address it but the current system is completely broken.
someone who is really rich, can afford to pay for their care in old age from pensions and investments or rental income that they don't need to work for, so their house isn't touched.
whereas many other people will end up losing everything they e ever saved to pay for their last few years.

[Wash DC Blue]

Re: So it's National Insurance then

something always doesn't seem to add up with care in this country. the costs are always eye watering. thousands per week. that can wipe through a value of a house in a couple of years.
yet at the same time there is no money to pay the carers adequately, they are hugely stressed and leaving the industry in droves.

where does it all go?

I don't know how to address it but the current system is completely broken.
someone who is really rich, can afford to pay for their care in old age from pensions and investments or rental income that they don't need to work for, so their house isn't touched.
whereas many other people will end up losing everything they e ever saved to pay for their last few years.

I think there are plenty of unscrupulous business owners making a fortune out of it.
Same goes for the multi property landlords.

[neilw65]

Re: So it's National Insurance then

The spin doctors (via the media) told us that individual employeeswould pay 2% extra, so I don't see what point you're trying to make by bringing employers' NI into it.

Actually the increase is not 1.25% it is actually 10%


if National Insurance is rising from 12% to 13.25% it is NOT rising by 1.25%. It is rising by 1.25 percentage points. if you want to describe its rise in percentage terms, it is rising by just over 10%. It is a 10% tax hike

[ToTaL ITK]

Re: So it's National Insurance then

The social care system in this country has had it

The elderly population keeps living longer

And the people who work in care are paid crap wages

It's a tsunami

thank feck for those immigrants that are willing to work for peanuts...oh yeah, they all got sent home