The Donald Trump thread

[Dorcus]

Re: The Donald Trump thread

People say "let's see what the Venezuelan people make of all this" but they won't get any say in the plundering of their oil reserves by US oil companies. The next Venezuelan government will be a vassal state of the USA or, more accurately Emperor Trump.

[JamesWales]

Re: The Donald Trump thread

Exactly, you could have just admitted that years ago

😂👍

[JamesWales]

Re: The Donald Trump thread

People say "let's see what the Venezuelan people make of all this" but they won't get any say in the plundering of their oil reserves by US oil companies. The next Venezuelan government will be a vassal state of the USA or, more accurately Emperor Trump.

They tried to have a say and the result was fixed, no?

[JamesWales]

Re: The Donald Trump thread

Bit like 'it's not brexit if it fails' right? Or do you choose to believe that one?

Thats never been my position, although some people do claim that "we never had Brexit" just like some claim "it/he/they was never left-wing anyway!".

No, my position is to point out that what's happening here is happening almost everywhere. Ergo, our issues aren't the B word. That's a distraction.

But we shouldn't go off topic here.

[JamesWales]

Re: The Donald Trump thread

For me it's not really a wish for death etc. but it kind of has to be 'not quite as easy as this' otherwise the entire world order has changed overnight. America used to feel like they had to build some kind of phoney consensus across the west to do anything remotely controversial. Now it doesn't, it just acts, so why won't it go further? That is a worrying prospect on the horizon.

America doesn't seem to be seeking free elections, they have tossed aside the opposition and are quite happy to work with the existing government in Venezuela as long as they get what they want out of it.

The problem we have is that if someone had said 'Trump is going to fly chinooks into Caracas and kidnap Maduro' last week, the majority of people would have thought that was massive hyperbole/'TDS' etc.. But now that has happened, the same people are going 'hmmm let's see how this works out'. The goalposts of normality are moving every single week. Eventually you find yourself explaining away things that seemed like a straight to video action film plot.

Yeah that is a fair point. It's a pretty remarkable - if far from unprecedented - turn of events.

I guess there is a wider philosophical question about whether it is just to do nothing if something bad is happening in another country, and thats a tough one to answer and needs to be balanced with self-determination. For me Venezuela probably hadn't crossed that threshold but let's be honest, none of us know much here about the reality of life for people there.

That why what happens now is key. If the people on balance welcome whats happened and if there's a clear route to elections soon then despite the methods the real life outcomes for people may improve, but it's too soon to tell. Ive still not seen much evidence of widespread public demonstrations like we have seen in Venezuela before or like we saw in Eastern Europe when communism fell for example.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: The Donald Trump thread

Thats never been my position, although some people do claim that "we never had Brexit" just like some claim "it/he/they was never left-wing anyway!".

No, my position is to point out that what's happening here is happening almost everywhere. Ergo, our issues aren't the B word. That's a distraction.

But we shouldn't go off topic here.

Yeah but that is a non-starter, restriction of trade is naturally going to hurt both sides and your evidence of 'it not being brexit' is that germany and france are struggling as well.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: The Donald Trump thread

Yeah that is a fair point. It's a pretty remarkable - if far from unprecedented - turn of events.

I guess there is a wider philosophical question about whether it is just to do nothing if something bad is happening in another country, and thats a tough one to answer and needs to be balanced with self-determination. For me Venezuela probably hadn't crossed that threshold but let's be honest, none of us know much here about the reality of life for people there.

That why what happens now is key. If the people on balance welcome whats happened and if there's a clear route to elections soon then despite the methods the real life outcomes for people may improve, but it's too soon to tell. Ive still not seen much evidence of widespread public demonstrations like we have seen in Venezuela before or like we saw in Eastern Europe when communism fell for example.

I think in most countries you are going to be able to find some people who would welcome their leader being put in a gulag and some that don't, pointing at one or the other isn't really going to be reliable evidence of it being good. There are people on here who would be pretty happy if the chinooks landed at number 10 and put a bag on Starmers head. It isn't about the situation, its about the precedent.

Regime change hasn't worked out well in the past, this is slightly different because they aren't even pretending that they want to change the regime, they are just going to keep working down the ladder until they find someone who will help secure passage for American oil companies. It is a protection racket and no amount of pointing out that Maduro is bad is going to stop that fact. Which country is next?

Foreign leaders will tie themselves in knots trying to respond to this, because they don't want the spotlight on them. America are just going to roll with this until there is actual political pushback and the eyes of the world are on it.

This is not a situation where you need to hunt for some sort of silver lining, chaos ensues if this becomes normal, that's should be enough for everyone to call it what it is.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: The Donald Trump thread

I think "the mask slips" when you see comments like wishing for Venezuela to be contemporary Americas Vietnam. Just like Venezuela is a pawn in Trump and Americas global game, so to it is for many people on the left who just view it as part of a wider ideological, anti-imperial game.

I don't think anyone is comfortable with the methods, bur it really is a case of seeing how the Venezuelan people react here, and what their next move is, which has to be towards free elections.

My mind goes back to 2003 and the “liberation” of Iraq. I recall a military “expert” being interviewed on breakfast television telling us how the allied forces would be greeted by joyful locals giving them a heroes welcome as they arrived in every new town.

[delmbox]

Re: The Donald Trump thread

I remember a time when the FIFA Peace Prize meant something

[jon1959]

Re: The Donald Trump thread

I remember a time when the FIFA Peace Prize meant something

I remember when the Epstein Files were on the front pages!

[delmbox]

Re: The Donald Trump thread

I remember when the Epstein Files were on the front pages!

ding ding ding ding ding!

[Dorcus]

Re: The Donald Trump thread

I remember when the Epstein Files were on the front pages!

Apparently there's around 5 million more items in the files. That amount is going to take a huge amount of distraction to soften their impact. I think anywhere in the World is at risk of a Trump attack but Greenland, Colombia, Cuba and Mexico had better be on red alert.

Oh and doesn't Trump hate the present presidential incumbent in Brazil? Who knows, a daring attempt to restore Bolsanaro to office? Those Epstein files might soon be slipping away into the sports and fashion pages

[Harry Paget Flashman]

Re: The Donald Trump thread

How many body bags per week are you hoping for?

I couldn't care less, providing no Welshmen are harmed.

If the US wants to play an Imperial game with their young as pawns then maybe those that voted for, excuse or support this government see it as a necessary loss.

They only people that stand to gain are those involved in arms and oil.

Oh and the odd nonce in Epstein files.

[Heathblue]

Re: The Donald Trump thread

I remember when the Epstein Files were on the front pages!

Was Joe asleep at the wheel.or has the extra million odd docs only just been found behind the sideboard?, far left cocaine loving commie's have been not so vocal of late, I wonder if the penny has suddenly dropped, Trump's 5D chess whilst the fact checking guardian BBC fan boys are still trying to learn checkers. 😁

NCSWIC

[jon1959]

Re: The Donald Trump thread

Was Joe asleep at the wheel.or has the extra million odd docs only just been found behind the sideboard?, far left cocaine loving commie's have been not so vocal of late, I wonder if the penny has suddenly dropped, Trump's 5D chess whilst the fact checking guardian BBC fan boys are still trying to learn checkers. 😁

NCSWIC

Can anyone translate?

I can’t work out if Trump’s 5D chess is hiding Epstein files, deflecting the news agenda, breaking international law, trashing the ‘rules based order’, stealing the oil, threatening Greenland (again) or ‘OD’ing on aspirin?

Or all of the above?

This latest round of Trump love seems to have its own coded language. Very difficult for non true believers to follow!