I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

[Claude Blue]

Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

I know we won't agree on Corbyn - or the reasons for the 2019 election failure - but to suggest that Starmer presents either decency or competence is beyond me. We have discussed this before, but to my mind he is an incompetent, a serial liar (not in Johnson's league - but bad enough) and (at best) an apologist and enabler of racists inside and outside the Labour Party.

Despite that a Labour government under Starmer is much better than any of the options on offer by the Tories. I will vote Labour again (as I have done at every GE since 1979) but without any enthusiasm.

It actually saddens me to read this Jon.

Again I've no desire to fall out with you but to accuse Starmer of being "an apologist and enabler of racists" whilst ignoring the behaviour of Corbyn and his acolytes is quite shocking.

I don't believe Starmer is incompetent, although the next GE will decide that.

As for being a liar - I assume because of the 10 pledges nonsense - we all need to accept that the world has moved on and that the priorities of 2020 may not be the same as now. None of us know how many of these pledges will be in the next manifesto - who knows, you maybe pleasantly surprised.

On the other hand maybe try some pragmatism and accept you wont get everything you want from any political party.

[JamesWales]

Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

For what it's worth, and as someone who has voted Labour, Tory and Lib Dem in recent elections, I can say I am far more likely to vote Labour with Starmer in charge. I would never have considered it under Corbyn but my vote is up for grabs now, and like it or not, it is floating voters that tend to decide elections.

[Swiss Peter]

Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

For what it's worth, and as someone who has voted Labour, Tory and Lib Dem in recent elections, I can say I am far more likely to vote Labour with Starmer in charge. I would never have considered it under Corbyn but my vote is up for grabs now, and like it or not, it is floating voters that tend to decide elections.

That's pretty much where I stand too.

I stopped reading the link in the OP half way through the second paragraph. Seemed a bit puerile to me.

[life on mars]

Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

I will never vote Labour again .

[Feedback]

Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

For what it's worth, and as someone who has voted Labour, Tory and Lib Dem in recent elections, I can say I am far more likely to vote Labour with Starmer in charge. I would never have considered it under Corbyn but my vote is up for grabs now, and like it or not, it is floating voters that tend to decide elections.

This

Labour under Starmer are far more electable than under Cornyn.

The UK is predominantly centre right, and Blair gave Labour their best performances in GE by shifting to the centre.

Whenever Labour shift left they end up with dismal results in GE (Foot and Corbyn).

Whilst some may want a true left wing government, acceptance that the best we'll get is centre left may go someway to achieving some of the outcomes that are desired

[Feedback]

Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

I will never vote Labour again .

Why? You have no idea what is going to happen tomorrow and what your priorities will be.

This is as myopic as those who say they'll never vote Tory.

[Doucas]

Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

Imagine if we had an election without the weight of the billionaire owned newspapers and media hammering Corbyn because he was the only one who would have genuinely changed things for the better.

Starmer is a liar and I'll void my vote before voting for him, may as well have another five years of conservatives if he gets in charge.

[Claude Blue]

Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

Imagine if we had an election without the weight of the billionaire owned newspapers and media hammering Corbyn because he was the only one who would have genuinely changed things for the better.

Starmer is a liar and I'll void my vote before voting for him, may as well have another five years of conservatives if he gets in charge.

Sadly your last paragraph is why we end up with Conservative governments.

The newspapers and media have always hammered Labour, Corbyn was in no way unique in this - apart from giving them plenty of ammunition.

Perhaps you can afford a continuous Conservative government, millions can't. If you thought Johnson was bad just you wait for Truss or Sunak. Truss has already stated that her priority is tax cuts and that there will be no further "handouts" (her words) and Sunak has already shown his true colours as a reverse Robin Hood.

But Starmer won't give you everything you want so to hell with the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. May I suggest you wait and see what Labour proposes for what should be an emergency budget in the autumn and for the next GE?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

I will never vote Labour again .

Not even if they espouse exactly the same things as they did when you previously voted for them?

[Dorcus]

Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

Not even if they espouse exactly the same things as they did when you previously voted for them?

I think it goes deeper and it's personal. My guess is he applied to be a Labour Councillor and was turned down or something of that ilk.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

Sadly your last paragraph is why we end up with Conservative governments.

The newspapers and media have always hammered Labour, Corbyn was in no way unique in this - apart from giving them plenty of ammunition.

Perhaps you can afford a continuous Conservative government, millions can't. If you thought Johnson was bad just you wait for Truss or Sunak. Truss has already stated that her priority is tax cuts and that there will be no further "handouts" (her words) and Sunak has already shown his true colours as a reverse Robin Hood.

But Starmer won't give you everything you want so to hell with the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. May I suggest you wait and see what Labour proposes for what should be an emergency budget in the autumn and for the next GE?

I agree. Increasingly, I’ve got little time for Starmer, but the Tories used to talk about putting “clear, blue water” between them and Labour, well this lot have put oceans of it between the two thanks in main to Johnson’s purge of some of the restraining elements on the One Nation wing of his party over Brexit (the nutters who complain about a “Remainers Brexit” are the driving force within the Conservatives now). Starmer’s not perfect, but his Government would not be like a mark 2 of this one - I would like to see Labour start to prove this by being more proactive about their own policies though.

[JamesWales]

Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

Why do you guys believe that any Labour government is always better than a Tory one? I don't. I think sensible countries flick between centre-right and centre-left every ten years or so. Which is what makes Wales such an outlier.

We've had a Labour government wholly in charge of education here for 23 years now. My kids currently going through the system, many others on here too. What is really better about it? The rhetoric is that Labour is better for poorer people, but is there that much evidence of that, certainly in terms of education anyway? Strikes me that if you are poorer then you have more life opportunities in England than Wales. Perhaps this idea that 'any labour govt will be better than Truss / Sunak' needs reconsidering?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-29688799

[Doucas]

Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

Sadly your last paragraph is why we end up with Conservative governments.

The newspapers and media have always hammered Labour, Corbyn was in no way unique in this - apart from giving them plenty of ammunition.

Perhaps you can afford a continuous Conservative government, millions can't. If you thought Johnson was bad just you wait for Truss or Sunak. Truss has already stated that her priority is tax cuts and that there will be no further "handouts" (her words) and Sunak has already shown his true colours as a reverse Robin Hood.

But Starmer won't give you everything you want so to hell with the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. May I suggest you wait and see what Labour proposes for what should be an emergency budget in the autumn and for the next GE?

What will Starmer give though? He lied to become leader and has thrown out his ten pledges. He won't even stand with workers during protests. As far as I can tell there is no difference between him and the tories. Tell me, how will he make the lives of the poor and vulnerable better, be specific.

[Feedback]

Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

What will Starmer give though? He lied to become leader and has thrown out his ten pledges. He won't even stand with workers during protests. As far as I can tell there is no difference between him and the tories. Tell me, how will he make the lives of the poor and vulnerable better, be specific.

Re: the 10 pledges. There iittle point in being a socialism idealist, you need to be a pragmatist too. Many socialist cannot reconcile this. It's all well and good wanting socialist policies but they are only relevant if you get elected. We've seen time and again the UK electorate doesn't want socialism

Starmer is a pragmatist social democrat and has amended his direction of travel because the world today is very different than in 2020.

Albert Einstein said insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get different results. Foot and Corbyn led labour to their worst ever election results, whilst Blair is the only Labour politician to win an election in nearly 50 years. This tells you which policies win elections.

You can be part of driving some of the change you want, or you can ignore the reality on the ground and carry on with a tory government.

[Dorcus]

Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

What will Starmer give though? He lied to become leader and has thrown out his ten pledges. He won't even stand with workers during protests. As far as I can tell there is no difference between him and the tories. Tell me, how will he make the lives of the poor and vulnerable better, be specific.

Despite Claude and myself having polarised views on Jeremy Corbyn and my general views being much more aligned to yours it seems I must agree with Claude on this issue.

At this moment in time the objective of the vast majority of the country, apart from the cosseted rich, is to get rid of this dreadful Tory government. As much as I adored Jeremy Corbyn and would love to see radical left wing policies put in place, unfortunately I can see that the general public won't buy into that (at the moment).

To be honest Starmer's tacit mandate is to appear as distanced from JC and left wing philosophy as possible just to unseat the Tories. To my mind, considering the catastrophically bad administration we've suffered for too long it is priority number one to oust these Tories and unfortunately you have to play them at their own game.

It's morally wrong and repulsive to me that Starmer doesn't publically stand with the strikers but this is a time for pragmatism not principle I'm afraid. Starmer is a poor Labour leader in my opinion but if he can at least allow the party to get a foothold in government I'm prepared to grit my teeth and cut him some slack. Hopefully, if we can get into power we can begin the process of educating the public to accept policies more conducive to their own well being.