Fascism?

[jon1959]

Re: Fascism?

Paul Mason's book is an interesting argument that right wing populism and authoritarian Conservatism is morphing into fascism. Not there yet but well on the way - with numerous parallels between now and the 1920s/1930s. And this is a global threat.

I went to a talk he did to promote the book last year (Sheffield's Off The Shelf Festival) and was convinced by a lot (not all) of what he said and wrote.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/aug/14/paul-mason-how-to-stop-fascism

Paul Mason Fascism.jpg

[JamesWales]

Re: Fascism?

Paul Mason's book is an interesting argument that right wing populism and authoritarian Conservatism is morphing into fascism. Not there yet but well on the way - with numerous parallels between now and the 1920s/1930s. And this is a global threat.

I went to a talk he did to promote the book last year (Sheffield's Off The Shelf Festival) and was convinced by a lot (not all) of what he said and wrote.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/aug/14/paul-mason-how-to-stop-fascism

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So much of Mhairi Black (a fine speaker, devoid of reality) and Paul Masons (same qualities) output is fundamentally ill informed though, and in many cases just factually wrong.

They use cherry picked arguments to back up an opinion that they will never ever deviate from. Mhairi Black probably the worst example of that. Just a rabble rouser - her tone and content are far closer to a history of political fascism than anything she accuses the government of.

Essentially they present an alternative reality and then present largely ineffective solutions to that alternative reality that will never work because they have been untruthful about the reality in the first place.

[Doucas]

Re: Fascism?

We are well on the road to fascism under this government according to this political scientist. https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

Many members on this forum actively support much of the list above.

[JamesWales]

Re: Fascism?

We are well on the road to fascism under this government according to this political scientist. https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

Many members on this forum actively support much of the list above.

We aren't well on the way to fascism under any of those 14 conditions.

Every democratic country on earth will have some traits with some of those issues, it doesn't mean they are on the road to fascism.

It's like saying that you are on the road to communism if you believe in a well funded army, universal healthcare or the wealthy paying more taxes.

That's exactly the kind of thinking that Senator McCarthy used in America and it's absolute nonsense.

The great irony is that in a contemporary British setting, those who accuse everyone else of being fascist are typically the least tolerant of other views, the most likely to want to shut down media they don't like and - in some cases - the most happy to ignore election or referendum results that they don't like.

[Claude Blue]

Re: Fascism?

There's no attempt to silence. Just stating my position.

That you interpret that as an attempt to silence may mean that other things are equally misinterpreted as fascism?

I see no evidence of it whatsoever to be honest. Our prime minister has been held to account by the press, by the judiciary and by protesters in recent months. Having been democratically elected in 2019 he stood down and the new leader will face an election within the next 3 years.

I do have concerns about creeping authoritarianism, most notably about an economy shifting away from cash which I consider a very dangerous precedent, the power of big tech, as well as the ease with which Covid restrictions were imposed and stuck, but I don't think we are remotely close to fascism.

If you seriously think that Boris Johnson "has been held to account by the press" then you are seriously deluded or perhaps you are just guilty of doing what you constantly accuse others of i.e. misinterpreting your own bias into fact.

The majority of our media were besotted with him and most remain so, mainly as he did their owners bidding and are now awaiting their reward. You may have noticed the concerted campaigns against the Commons Standards committee due to them actually holding him to account.

May I ask where the judiciary have held him to account in recent months?

Protestors? How very dare they! Never mind, they have legislation in hand to stop that nonsense.

Your final paragraph could have been written by Wales-Bales or Organ Morgan so I'll ignore that as I do them.

[JamesWales]

Re: Fascism?

If you seriously think that Boris Johnson "has been held to account by the press" then you are seriously deluded or perhaps you are just guilty of doing what you constantly accuse others of i.e. misinterpreting your own bias into fact.

The majority of our media were besotted with him and most remain so, mainly as he did their owners bidding and are now awaiting their reward. You may have noticed the concerted campaigns against the Commons Standards committee due to them actually holding him to account.

May I ask where the judiciary have held him to account in recent months?

Protestors? How very dare they! Never mind, they have legislation in hand to stop that nonsense.

Your final paragraph could have been written by Wales-Bales or Organ Morgan so I'll ignore that as I do them.

Just to be clear:

1/Most British people wanted the PM to resign, and he did.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/majority-brits-want-boris-johnson-125507669.html

2/Much of the media criticised him for weeks on end with no repurcussions. Many called for him to resign. He did.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/jan/13/disgrace-what-the-papers-said-as-boris-johnson-faces-calls-to-resign

3/Boris Johnson was fined by the police for a criminal act.

4/ People daily protested against Boris Johnson in person and online with no repurcussions.

NONE Of the above happens in fascist states. To say the UK is fascist, or slipping anywhere near it is ridiculous at best and rather an insult to the genuine victims of fascism throughout history at worst. Shock jocks like James O'Brien may peddle this stuff, but it doesn't make it true. The very fact people are allowed to peddle it is evidence itself that what they are saying is not true.

Fundementally, you don't agree with everything he did, which is absolutely fair enought, and the media, the police, the people were free to hold him to account and now he is soon to be replaced.

Rather than an example of fascism, it is in fact a rather good example of exactly how liberal democracies can and do work.

[life on mars]

Re: Fascism?

This is simple politics someone needs to keep Boris feet near the fire and the biggest tool in the box is what a bad boy he is ,there is a lack of a manifesto form either party so all they can do is keep talking about crap , limp to the next election ...

If I was in opposition id stop talking about this crap and move on be bold publish some well meaning facts on how to run the country instead of saying oooooh there rubbish , ooh they have done this and that ffs .

Before we know it Truss will won and make very rapid ground on the very slim poll lead that Labour has ..

The SNP have got Labour snookered without Scotland they wont get a majority ,Angela is right the SNP is the Tories biggest weapon these days , alongside re entering the single market .

The Tories and SNP say a lot the others are mute

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Fascism?

I don’t think the Labour Party is relevant here despite the usual efforts of LOM to drag them into things. I puta question mark in the title of tbe thread because I don’t think we’re at that stage yet, but we’re getting there. We have what is apparently the highest selling newspaper in the country rounding on Conservative members of a Committee that is supposed to apply the checks and balances needed to keep our democracy honest because they are daring not to fall into place with the cult of an incompetent and dishonest ex leader who clearly misled Parliament when he denied any knowledge of law breaking parties in 10 Downing Street. Naming and shaming the four Tory’s the Daily Mail thought were on the Committee which is going to look into Johnson’s behaviour is a disgrace, especially when one of the four resigned weeks ago. Slagging off one of your own because they’re not considered “pure” enough puts any political party on a slippery slope.

[JamesWales]

Re: Fascism?

I don’t think the Labour Party is relevant here despite the usual efforts of LOM to drag them into things. I puta question mark in the title of tbe thread because I don’t think we’re at that stage yet, but we’re getting there. We have what is apparently the highest selling newspaper in the country rounding on Conservative members of a Committee that is supposed to apply the checks and balances needed to keep our democracy honest because they are daring not to fall into place with the cult of an incompetent and dishonest ex leader who clearly misled Parliament when he denied any knowledge of law breaking parties in 10 Downing Street. Naming and shaming the four Tory’s the Daily Mail thought were on the Committee which is going to look into Johnson’s behaviour is a disgrace, especially when one of the four resigned weeks ago. Slagging off one of your own because they’re not considered “pure” enough puts any political party on a slippery slope.

Although I have sympathy with what you say, on some of the tone of the press, it is all about checks and balances as you say.

And the press are part of that. It is crititical that they also provide checks and balances against the government and it's institutions.

Is this the offending article? It has it's own style of course, but it is also reporting what an elected government minister is saying as well as providing information on the committee.

You may not like the article, but I certainly don't view this of evidence that the UK is on the road to fascism - if anything, the press reporting on this committee is probably an example of the opposite.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11089921/Tories-quit-Boris-Johnson-witch-hunt-Minister-tells-MPs-abandon-rigged-Partygate-probe.html

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Fascism?

We are well on the road to fascism under this government according to this political scientist. https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

Many members on this forum actively support much of the list above.

I’d say nos. 1,2,3,7,9,10,11,12 and 13 could be applied to this Government.

[JamesWales]

Re: Fascism?

I’d say nos. 1,2,3,7,9,10,11,12 and 13 could be applied to this Government.

Jesus, that's bonkers. You honestly think Britain is "well on the road to fascism"? Christ alive, Bob.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Fascism?

Jesus, that's bonkers. You honestly think Britain is "well on the road to fascism"? Christ alive, Bob.

No, it’s different to what you think that’s all.

Point One - union flags everywhere including use by Labour and attacks on “wokeism” - whatever that is.
Point Two - proposed leaving of the European Court of human rights. Crackdown on the right to protest.
Point three - endless “culture wars and attacks on “wokeism” - wherever that is.
Point seven - “secure our borders”, sending people to Rwanda.
Point nine - Obsession with “business” over people by some Conservatives during lockdowns.
Point ten - They been doing it for decades, if not centuries.
Point eleven - BBC public enemy number one, privatising Channel 4.
Point twelve - Always been the “hang ‘em, flog em” party.
Point thirteen - where do you start with this lot? PPE is as good as anywhere.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Fascism?

Well done sir Bernard Jenkin.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/09/senior-tory-terrorist-lobby-partygate-inquiry-bernard-jenkin

[Lither_1927]

Re: Fascism?

Paul Mason's book is an interesting argument that right wing populism and authoritarian Conservatism is morphing into fascism. Not there yet but well on the way - with numerous parallels between now and the 1920s/1930s. And this is a global threat.

I went to a talk he did to promote the book last year (Sheffield's Off The Shelf Festival) and was convinced by a lot (not all) of what he said and wrote.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/aug/14/paul-mason-how-to-stop-fascism

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Mason is an extremist and extremely Machiavellian. Not a nice guy at all.

[Lither_1927]

Re: Fascism?

Jesus, that's bonkers. You honestly think Britain is "well on the road to fascism"? Christ alive, Bob.

Like many, including you James. He doesn't know what fascism is. I'd recommend reading a publication by Oswald Moseley and avoid ANYTHING by Owen Jones or Paul Mason.

Jon - What actual fascist texts have you read? Mad lad Mason doesn't count.