Mr Bates V's the Post Office

[Cleve van Leef]

Re: Mr Bates V's the Post Office

It gets worse and worse for those who were running the Post Office, government don’t come out too well either

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68079300

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Mr Bates V's the Post Office

It gets worse and worse for those who were running the Post Office, government don’t come out too well either

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68079300

i scoffed a week or two ago when I first heard it described as the UK's biggest corporate scandal, but it certainly doesn't seem so daft now.

[BLUETIT]

Re: Mr Bates V's the Post Office

Post Office bosses kept insisting their systems were robust.
But they made a concession following pressure from MPs, offering to set up a mediation scheme to deal with what they said was a small number of cases.
The documents reveal the Post Office planned to pay a total of only £1m in "token payments", or compensation, to sub-postmasters as it suppressed evidence of computer bugs in 2014.
Why were hundreds of Post Office workers prosecuted?
But it was a vast underestimation of the eventual cost of the scandal, which is now expected to be more than £1bn.
Details of the Project Sparrow discussions were not disclosed in evidence to sub-postmasters as they challenged the Post Office through the courts in 2017-2019.
"It's been a cover-up from start to finish," said Alan Bates. "That's coming out now. It's undeniable.
"And this is what we've been up against all the way. We've always known they were covering up - it's just been very difficult to find prThe secret plan to sack Second Sight is revealed in the minutes of two Project Sparrow meetings in April 2014.
The minutes were released in heavily redacted form in 2021 after former Post Office chief executive Paula Vennells disclosed the existence of Project Sparrow.
Now the BBC has obtained the unredacted minutes, showing what the Post Office didn't want the public to seeloof," he added.
The Project Sparrow sub-committee was led by Post Office chair Alice Perkins and included chief executive Paula Vennells, alongside the Post Office's most senior internal lawyer, general counsel Chris Aujard, and Richard Callard, a senior civil servant at UK Government Investments, then a division of the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy.
The unredacted minutes for 9 April 2014 show the sub-committee asking for a paper to be prepared on the role of Second Sight and "options to support them or reduce their role".
Three weeks later, on 30 April 2014, they agree on a plan to bring the investigation of sub-postmasters' cases "within the control of the Post Office", removing Second Sight from its role of investigating sub-postmasters' cases independently.
However, that decision was kept secret from Parliament and the public as the Post Office claimed Second Sight's independent review supported its approach to sub-postmasters' complaints. The Post Office was then seeking to defuse the scandal through a mediation scheme, which excluded many victims from compensation.
Bugs in the system
Nine months before the committee met, Second Sight submitted a report on 8 July 2013 identifying computer bugs that raised doubts over the reliability of Horizon data used to prosecute sub-postmasters.
A week later, on 15 July 2013, the Post Office was warned in formal advice written by its own lawyer Simon Clarke that it was in breach of its legal duties because sub-postmasters who had been prosecuted should have been told about the bugs.
The next day, 16 July 2013, the Post Office board expressed concern that Second Sight's review exposed the business to claims of wrongful convictions.
Yet the Project Sparrow minutes from April 2014 show Paula Vennells, Alice Perkins and the other members discussed closing or speeding up the mediation scheme and planning to pay minimal compensation to sub-postmasters
That followed advice from lawyers Linklaters that they had only "very limited liability in relation to financial redress".
The minutes show the committee asking for a paper to brief them on making "token payments" to sub-postmasters applying to the mediation scheme, trumpeted in public at the time by ministers as a solution to sub-postmasters' complaints.
"The cost of all cases in the scheme going to mediation would be in the region of £1m," the unredacted minutes state.
Members of the committee knew sub-postmasters wouldn't be happy and that there was a "real risk" that "many applicants will remain dissatisfied at the end of the process".
On 30 April 2014, following advice from Chris Aujard, the committee decided not to make any "ex gratia" payments - meaning payments to struggling sub-postmasters to help them while their cases were examined.
They also asked for a paper to be prepared on options for closing or speeding up the mediation scheme.
Second Sight's interim report in 2013 did say that it had found no systemic flaws in the Horizon system. But the word "systemic" had a specific meaning - that no flaws could be found in every single post office branch.
What the Post Office didn't say was that it also made an unwelcome finding, identifying incidents where defects or bugs in the Horizon software "gave rise to 76 branches being affected by incorrect balances or transactions which took some time to identify and correct".
On 17 December 2014, when Post Office Minister Jo Swinson answered a parliamentary debate on the scandal, she pointed to the independent role of Second Sight.
The following year, in March 2015, as it prepared to submit its full report, 11 months after the decision had been taken, Second Sight's contract was terminated and the Post Office brought investigation of the sub-postmasters' cases in-house.
Alice Perkins and Paula Vennells didn't respond to requests for comment.
Linklaters also did not comment.
Chris Aujard and Richard Callard said through public relations advisers that they would not comment while the inquiry was ongoing.
A representative of the government at UK Government Investments declined to comment.
A Post Office spokesperson said: "We never discuss individuals and it would be inappropriate to comment on allegations being made outside of the Inquiry, whose role it is to consider all of the evidence on the issues it is examining and independently reach conclusions.
"We fully share the Public Inquiry's aims to get to the truth of what happened in the past and accountability."
I

[PontBlue]

Re: Mr Bates V's the Post Office

It gets worse and worse for those who were running the Post Office, government don’t come out too well either

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68079300

Serious jail time is needed for those who clearly took part in the cover up.

[BLUETIT]

Re: Mr Bates V's the Post Office

Serious jail time is needed for those who clearly took part in the cover up.

I was just going to write the same thing myself

That Paula woman gotta do 12 years at least

[llan bluebird]

Re: Mr Bates V's the Post Office

I was just going to write the same thing myself

That Paula woman gotta do 12 years at least

Absolutely, with that great salary comes great responsibility and accountability !!

But, Vernells is the top of the iceberg where is Adam Crozier most the the early lying was during his watch

[SOXY BOY]

Re: Mr Bates V's the Post Office

What I can’t get my head around is, when there were around 2500 post masters/mistresses losing money with Horizon, someone should have realised the system was wrong or did they think,that all of these people,all of a sudden decided to become criminals and start stealing money, when they’d been perfectly honest up until that time.

[BLUETIT]

Re: Mr Bates V's the Post Office

What I can’t get my head around is, when there were around 2500 post masters/mistresses losing money with Horizon, someone should have realised the system was wrong or did they think,that all of these people,all of a sudden decided to become criminals and start stealing money, when they’d been perfectly honest up until that time.

If you read the whole synopsis above, it states that they knew about it, but decided to sack the people who knew about it and cover it up.

[North Cardiff Blue]

Re: Mr Bates V's the Post Office

What I can’t get my head around is, when there were around 2500 post masters/mistresses losing money with Horizon, someone should have realised the system was wrong or did they think,that all of these people,all of a sudden decided to become criminals and start stealing money, when they’d been perfectly honest up until that time.

There are always going to be some branches where the owners or their staff were stealing, that happened long before Horizon and will happen forever. They should have data on what percentage of people that usually is and spot a big increase.

There will no doubt also be people now claiming they were affected and looking for compensation, that's the way of the World.

[Cyclops]

Re: Mr Bates V's the Post Office

You have to wonder whether even the judges/magistrates who heard the court cases were entirely blameless and impartial.
How could so many be hoodwinked by the 'evidence' presented in court.
And the defence lawyers - how qualified and professional were they?
If you start with the basic premise that MPs and part of the government was party to the cover-up, the abuse of privilege at so many levels becomes a possibility.
The findings of this enquiry could be far reaching, and the police and public prosecutors could be very busy in early 2025.

[SOXY BOY]

Re: Mr Bates V's the Post Office

Another inconsistent factor were some of the sentences handed out, one went to prison for 9 months, another had a suspended sentence and another had community service. Hopefully, the Police will take over any future investigations and get rid of the PO investigators. At least the Police will have linked the numbers and not cover the PO’s arse.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Mr Bates V's the Post Office

I think this definitely raises the possibility of large scale theft having taken place - the alternative that all of that public money was spent on a face saving exercise for high ups in the Post Office almost seems worse.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68663750

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

Re: Mr Bates V's the Post Office

I'm going to see Toby Jones talking about the case at Hay festival.

[PontBlue]

Re: Mr Bates V's the Post Office

I'm going to see Toby Jones talking about the case at Hay festival.

Me too. Love the Hay Festival.

[PontBlue]

Re: Mr Bates V's the Post Office

I think this definitely raises the possibility of large scale theft having taken place - the alternative that all of that public money was spent on a face saving exercise for high ups in the Post Office almost seems worse.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68663750

There really needs to be jail time for post office executives and lawyers who were complicit in the jailing and death of innocent people.