The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...

[the other bob wilson]

Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...

Apparently that's eight times across the season that he's made the bench for a Wednesday league game which would suggest he isn't merely making the bench because of a rare collection of injuries. He's also just signed a two and a half year contract extension.

Did you feel we let him go too early? Or has he merely bloomed since leaving us?

Maybe we didn't let him go, it might be that Wednesday offered him a better deal? If it was our decision not to offer him a new contract, then I'm surprised, because I always thought he was among the best players in that particular group of Academy youngsters.

[Blue in the Face]

Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...

WALES YOUNGSTERS HEAD TO THE SLOVAKIA CUP
(Lots more details in the link)...

https://www.faw.cymru/en/news/wales-youngsters-head-slovakia-cup/?back=/en/news/&pos=1

u19s Squad

George Ratcliffe (CARDIFF CITY)
Adam Przybek (WEST BROMWICH ALBION)
Connor Davies (CARDIFF CITY)
Ryan Reynolds (CARDIFF CITY)
Jay Foulston (NEWPORT COUNTY)
Morgan Boyes (LIVERPOOL)
Nico Williams (LIVERPOOL)
Brandon Cooper (SWANSEA CITY)
Luke Jephcott (PLYMOUTH ARGYLE)
Pablo Martinez (WEST BROMWICH ALBION)
Keenan Patten (CARDIFF CITY)
Isaak Davies (CARDIFF CITY)
Jack Vale (BLACKBURN ROVERS)
Rueben Duncan (MILLWALL)
Elliott Thorpe (TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR)
Callum Watts (SOUTHAMPTON)
Ben Cabango (SWANSEA CITY)
Mason Jones Thomas (SWANSEA CITY)
Sam Bowen (CARDIFF CITY)
Lewis Collins (NEWPORT COUNTY)

[ccfc_is_my_life]

Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...

Maybe we didn't let him go, it might be that Wednesday offered him a better deal? If it was our decision not to offer him a new contract, then I'm surprised, because I always thought he was among the best players in that particular group of Academy youngsters.

His talent is to be honest irrelevant.

The question is how many would be above him with regards to playing in the first team; I recall he's more a right back so Peltier, Manga, Richards etc. It's silly to keep someone on just for the sake of it.

EDIT: Loramski's post from 26th April just shows the club have been effectively right in releasing players we have, regards of people's views on them.

It shows there's a vast gulf between Academy levels and real football.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...

WALES YOUNGSTERS HEAD TO THE SLOVAKIA CUP
(Lots more details in the link)...

https://www.faw.cymru/en/news/wales-youngsters-head-slovakia-cup/?back=/en/news/&pos=1

u19s Squad

George Ratcliffe (CARDIFF CITY)
Adam Przybek (WEST BROMWICH ALBION)
Connor Davies (CARDIFF CITY)
Ryan Reynolds (CARDIFF CITY)
Jay Foulston (NEWPORT COUNTY)
Morgan Boyes (LIVERPOOL)
Nico Williams (LIVERPOOL)
Brandon Cooper (SWANSEA CITY)
Luke Jephcott (PLYMOUTH ARGYLE)
Pablo Martinez (WEST BROMWICH ALBION)
Keenan Patten (CARDIFF CITY)
Isaak Davies (CARDIFF CITY)
Jack Vale (BLACKBURN ROVERS)
Rueben Duncan (MILLWALL)
Elliott Thorpe (TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR)
Callum Watts (SOUTHAMPTON)
Ben Cabango (SWANSEA CITY)
Mason Jones Thomas (SWANSEA CITY)
Sam Bowen (CARDIFF CITY)
Lewis Collins (NEWPORT COUNTY)

Five of those started on Tuesday in the Cup Final and Reynolds came on as a sub - Connor Davies is only 16 according to that Wales Online article and I would have thought Patten, Isaak Davies or Bowen were seventeen at most.

No Sion Spence I see, I know he's not eighteen until October and I'd be very surprised if he has been dropped - maybe he'll be involved with the Under 21s if they're playing this month?

[the other bob wilson]

Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...

His talent is to be honest irrelevant.

The question is how many would be above him with regards to playing in the first team; I recall he's more a right back so Peltier, Manga, Richards etc. It's silly to keep someone on just for the sake of it.

EDIT: Loramski's post from 26th April just shows the club have been effectively right in releasing players we have, regards of people's views on them.

It shows there's a vast gulf between Academy levels and real football.

How many Academy games do you get to watch?

[ccfc_is_my_life]

Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...

How many Academy games do you get to watch?

Not as many as I'd like to due to work.

The reality is that players can be released due to not being good enough, players can be released due to being in a position where we're already strong.

So far, it's hard to claim the club have made massive mistakes when there are next to no released players making an impact at this level.

[Blue in the Face]

Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...

His talent is to be honest irrelevant.

The question is how many would be above him with regards to playing in the first team; I recall he's more a right back so Peltier, Manga, Richards etc. It's silly to keep someone on just for the sake of it.

EDIT: Loramski's post from 26th April just shows the club have been effectively right in releasing players we have, regards of people's views on them.

It shows there's a vast gulf between Academy levels and real football.

Don't forget though the DVP team has been playing the whole season with trialists. We've also ended up recruiting centre backs who I think might even be a tad older than Baker. Perhaps we should be speculating a little longer?

One thing the club hasn't done since the Adam Matthews is claw back some of the investment made from the player's development. Did we even get anything for Declan John? Maybe allowing players to leave on a free is the reality, but I'd like to see us at least angling for sell-on fees if the players come good. I hope we have done that with John at Rangers.

The obvious conclusion is that the club are perhaps trying to raise the standard bar, so the youngsters know if they haven't pushed themselves to certain levels at a certain age they are cut. Sending out a message to the younger age groups.

Five of those started on Tuesday in the Cup Final and Reynolds came on as a sub - Connor Davies is only 16 according to that Wales Online article and I would have thought Patten, Isaak Davies or Bowen were seventeen at most.

No Sion Spence I see, I know he's not eighteen until October and I'd be very surprised if he has been dropped - maybe he'll be involved with the Under 21s if they're playing this month?

I do think the Wales u21s needs a big re-think in the middle of the pitch, which seems to be letting the rest of the system down. I think Robbie Burton will be brought into the next u21s camp after just earning a pro deal at Arsenal. But he's playing deeper in midfield than he was a couple of years ago. Going off the top of my head, there's also Matt Smith, Joe Morrell and Alex Babos (haven't seen play), who could play in the 8 or 10 positions. Page does play a man in the hole so it's possible Spence is in his thinking.

Should James Waite also be in Page's thoughts? I don't remember him ever getting international recognition.

[Blue in the Face]

Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...

EDIT: regarding Spence. This Wales squad is I think a preperation for u19 qualifiers much later in the year. So perhaps the selection is with the next 18 months in mind and creating cohesion with the next crop. So players who might be pushed up to the u21s beyond the current qualifers, which end this autumn, will miss out on this squad. At least that's my guess.

[ccfc_is_my_life]

Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...

Don't forget though the DVP team has been playing the whole season with trialists. We've also ended up recruiting centre backs who I think might even be a tad older than Baker. Perhaps we should be speculating a little longer?

One thing the club hasn't done since the Adam Matthews is claw back some of the investment made from the player's development. Did we even get anything for Declan John? Maybe allowing players to leave on a free is the reality, but I'd like to see us at least angling for sell-on fees if the players come good. I hope we have done that with John at Rangers.

Whilst that would be a nicety, John failed to do anything at League One level. Nobody wanted to buy him so all we could do was look at him as being a reduction on the wage bill.

The obvious conclusion is that the club are perhaps trying to raise the standard bar, so the youngsters know if they haven't pushed themselves to certain levels at a certain age they are cut. Sending out a message to the younger age groups.

I agree with Warnock's view on the DVP. You learn nothing playing against same age due to so many youngsters flaming out. Someone can look amazing at same age group, be shit when playing at higher levels.

I do think the Wales u21s needs a big re-think in the middle of the pitch, which seems to be letting the rest of the system down. I think Robbie Burton will be brought into the next u21s camp after just earning a pro deal at Arsenal. But he's playing deeper in midfield than he was a couple of years ago. Going off the top of my head, there's also Matt Smith, Joe Morrell and Alex Babos (haven't seen play), who could play in the 8 or 10 positions. Page does play a man in the hole so it's possible Spence is in his thinking.

Should James Waite also be in Page's thoughts? I don't remember him ever getting international recognition.

I always though Waite was Thai...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Waite

[the other bob wilson]

Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...

EDIT: regarding Spence. This Wales squad is I think a preperation for u19 qualifiers much later in the year. So perhaps the selection is with the next 18 months in mind and creating cohesion with the next crop. So players who might be pushed up to the u21s beyond the current qualifers, which end this autumn, will miss out on this squad. At least that's my guess.

You could be right - regarding Waite, was he a late call up for an Under 21 squad in the last year or two or am I imagining it?

[the other bob wilson]

Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...

Not as many as I'd like to due to work.

The reality is that players can be released due to not being good enough, players can be released due to being in a position where we're already strong.

So far, it's hard to claim the club have made massive mistakes when there are next to no released players making an impact at this level.

Your last sentence is the one that it is hard to argue against, but, although people say that it's a shit league and a shit club, Declan John's career seems to have advanced since he moved to Rangers (Forrest of Celtic ran amok in the Old Firm game over the weekend, but I've seen Declan deal with him quite well a couple of times this season). Tom James seems to be earning himself a move up the league ladder at Yeovil - I really don't think the gap between Academy football and what you call real football is as large as you make it out to be, I accept that a youngster may only get the one chance to shine in the first team and it's a case of sink or swim, but ours all seem to be deemed to be sinkers these days without being chucked in the deep end!

[ccfc_is_my_life]

Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...

Your last sentence is the one that it is hard to argue against, but, although people say that it's a shit league and a shit club, Declan John's career seems to have advanced since he moved to Rangers (Forrest of Celtic ran amok in the Old Firm game over the weekend, but I've seen Declan deal with him quite well a couple of times this season). Tom James seems to be earning himself a move up the league ladder at Yeovil - I really don't think the gap between Academy football and what you call real football is as large as you make it out to be, I accept that a youngster may only get the one chance to shine in the first team and it's a case of sink or swim, but ours all seem to be deemed to be sinkers these days without being chucked in the deep end!

The overwhelming majority of Academy players, regardless of club, are "sinkers" though. That's the reality of football, finding that gem is very much the exception.

Declan John was played at numerous positions at lower level and failed in every one. His career may well have advanced but at a poor level. Nothing in his Rangers career indicated we made the wrong decision in getting rid of him.

James may well have found his natural level. Until his career progresses, difficult to say.

Reality is, of the player we've released, all have gravitated downwards. People point to a Regan Poole, Man Utd loaned him out to Northampton where he can't even get a regular place - plus being moved into midfield.

I just find it hard to believe any manager would willingly not play a youngster if that youngster could save them precious money in a limited budget.

[Blue in the Face]

Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...

You could be right - regarding Waite, was he a late call up for an Under 21 squad in the last year or two or am I imagining it?

Have to admit, I don't recall him ever getting a call up. Wales could have done with his mould of player in recent games. I feel he should get a cap while the chance is there and the upcoming games are fairly meaningless. Though Page may feel the pressure, he should really take the chance to experiment because what he has been doing has not been working. Think he has defender turned manager syndrome whereby he is too concerned about being conservative.

There is another name I should mention coming up at Man U - Dylan Levitt may be another candidate for a shot at the 8 / 10. One to look out for.

Your last sentence is the one that it is hard to argue against, but, although people say that it's a shit league and a shit club, Declan John's career seems to have advanced since he moved to Rangers (Forrest of Celtic ran amok in the Old Firm game over the weekend, but I've seen Declan deal with him quite well a couple of times this season). Tom James seems to be earning himself a move up the league ladder at Yeovil - I really don't think the gap between Academy football and what you call real football is as large as you make it out to be, I accept that a youngster may only get the one chance to shine in the first team and it's a case of sink or swim, but ours all seem to be deemed to be sinkers these days without being chucked in the deep end!

Tom James rumours to the championship won't go away. Another rumour in the papers today about a move to the Wurzels. Remains to be seen, but hopefully he gets a good move up and takes it.

The overwhelming majority of Academy players, regardless of club, are "sinkers" though. That's the reality of football, finding that gem is very much the exception.

Declan John was played at numerous positions at lower level and failed in every one. His career may well have advanced but at a poor level. Nothing in his Rangers career indicated we made the wrong decision in getting rid of him.

James may well have found his natural level. Until his career progresses, difficult to say.

Reality is, of the player we've released, all have gravitated downwards. People point to a Regan Poole, Man Utd loaned him out to Northampton where he can't even get a regular place - plus being moved into midfield.

I just find it hard to believe any manager would willingly not play a youngster if that youngster could save them precious money in a limited budget.

I think Cardiff's record of turning players into pros is a lot better than our fans give credit for. There are a lot of young ex Cardiff pros out there now. I'm sure one or two will come good.

The key problems seem to be - One, blooding youngsters for an upper championship club or above is getting harder by the season due to the growing competativeness of the leagues. Two, it's even harder for us because our academy doesn't have the status of the clubs above us, so are quality isn't there throughout and loaning clubs are looking to PL teams for loans.

There seems to be an issue with the initial couple of seasons that a player gets games. Loaning clubs would rather nuture their own assets ideally. Top clubs can't risk playing inexperienced players in high pressure games. David Brooks was given away by Man City. But what would his value be now? And yet had he stayed, then he might well have just been a another young player who still hasn't played a pro game that most people haven't heard of and has no value. Playing games and opportunities is the key, which is why I think TOBW is spot on.

[Blue in the Face]

Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...

One more point to add. Potential is potential and isn't really malleable. But I believe you need to put in your 10000 hours before you give that potential a chance. I think this is part of TOBW's point. Players need experience and opportunity.

[Loramski]

Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...

One more point to add. Potential is potential and isn't really malleable. But I believe you need to put in your 10000 hours before you give that potential a chance. I think this is part of TOBW's point. Players need experience and opportunity.

Which players though? We're one point clear in second place, are you saying Warnock should have weakened the team at some point by playing youngsters he didn't think were good enough just because it would've been a nice thing to do? It's not realistic. Even two of the youngsters who eventually did force their way in here, Rhys Healey and Kadeem Harris, have been deemed surplus to requirements for the run-in. If there are better players than those two in the DVP side at present then I haven't seen them, even League 2 sides didn't take any of them on loan in January.

I'm all for bringing youngsters through but they've got to be of a standard. Just playing them won't make them world beaters. Ben Nugent, Aaron Wildig and Declan John all got a chance here but it still didn't work out for them. We sent players like Tommy O'Sullivan and Jazzi Barnum-Bobb out on loan to league clubs, where did that opportunity and experience get them?

Warnock (as with Slade before him) doesn't play the kind of football that will encourage the youngsters we're bringing through but until there's some genuine quality there it's hard to be critical of him for not playing them, even though I'd love to agree with you and TOBW on this.