Christmas

[truthpaste]

Re: Christmas

I would suggest watching the following video about evidential audit trails about the background of various Jesus stories and how the the various branches of Abrahamist religions view 'him'. With respect, I think that very few believers actually know about such detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTllC7TbM8M

Certainly a lot of froth and intellectual back slapping, nothing new.
What is your conclusion Sludge? Is Christ a madman, a liar, divine or something else?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Christmas

Certainly a lot of froth and intellectual back slapping, nothing new.
What is your conclusion Sludge? Is Christ a madman, a liar, divine or something else?

If he existed then he's certainly dead now whether he was a madman a liar or whatever

As is his old man

[truthpaste]

Re: Christmas

If he existed then he's certainly dead now whether he was a madman a liar or whatever

As is his old man

So what makes you think they are subject to time like we are?

And you didn't answer the question.... Jesus asked - "who do you say I am?"

[Baloo]

Re: Christmas

So what makes you think they are subject to time like we are?

And you didn't answer the question.... Jesus asked - "who do you say I am?"

Check TBG’s video out.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Christmas

So what makes you think they are subject to time like we are?

And you didn't answer the question.... Jesus asked - "who do you say I am?"

They are time travellers ?

I like a good debate but come on

Jesus ?

First of all if he did exist he was a chilled out hippy that's all

And how do you know that this bloke called jesus asked anyone anything ?

The stuff he is supposed to have said was written 200 years after he died

[life on mars]

Re: Christmas

They are time travellers ?

I like a good debate but come on

Jesus ?

First of all if he did exist he was a chilled out hippy that's all

And how do you know that this bloke called jesus asked anyone anything ?

The stuff he is supposed to have said was written 200 years after he died

Be careful his dad is watching 👀

[truthpaste]

Re: Christmas

They are time travellers ?

I like a good debate but come on

Jesus ?

First of all if he did exist he was a chilled out hippy that's all

And how do you know that this bloke called jesus asked anyone anything ?

The stuff he is supposed to have said was written 200 years after he died

If you like a GOOD debate then realise that you'll need to bring facts to the table, not your suppositions.

The Gospels were written in the lifetime of the eye witnesses to ALL His miracles and the things that he said.

So in the interests of accuracy, would you care to do 5 minutes verification and we can move forward?

[lardy]

Re: Christmas

If you like a GOOD debate then realise that you'll need to bring facts to the table, not your suppositions.

The Gospels were written in the lifetime of the eye witnesses to ALL His miracles and the things that he said.

So in the interests of accuracy, would you care to do 5 minutes verification and we can move forward?

Bringing in facts. Brave move.

[Baloo]

Re: Christmas

The Gospels were written in the lifetime of the eye witnesses to ALL His miracles and the things that he said.

just so it's clear, what dates are you using to calculate that? I.e. date range for Jesus's miracles and dates for the writing of all the gospels, as I understand they weren't all written at the same time.

[Canton Kev]

Re: Christmas

Facts and accuracy? Good one.
You go first

[truthpaste]

Re: Christmas

Facts and accuracy? Good one.
You go first

No problem, we might have been in the Champions League before Sludge supported his +200 years story!

The website "Got Questions" (below*) talk about the Gospels and when they were written starting with Matthew.
If you are familiar with the 24th chapter of that Gospel then you will already know that the writer records the conversation Jesus had with some of His disciples re the destruction of the Temple (in Jerusalem). From our perspective we know that did later happen in AD70, but the writer only records the words of Jesus predicting that it will be witnessed by the same generation that are asking him about it. The writer of the Gospel of Matthew makes no reference to it as a historical event, or that Jesus was correct! Something he certainly would have done if he had written about it AFTER AD70!

* There are scholars who believe the Gospel of Matthew was written as early as ten to twelve years after the death of Christ. Those who hold to this earlier dating of Matthew believe he first wrote his Gospel in Aramaic, and then it was later translated into Greek. One of the evidences of this earlier dating of Matthew’s Gospel is that early church leaders such as Irenaeus, Origen, and Eusebius recorded that Matthew first wrote his Gospel for Jewish believers while he was still in Israel. In fact Eusebius (a bishop of Caesarea and known as the father of church history) reported that Matthew wrote his Gospel before he left Israel to preach in other lands, which Eusebius says happened about 12 years after the death of Christ. Some scholars believe that this would place the writing of Matthew as early as A.D. 40-45 and as late as A.D. 55.

Even if the Gospels were not written until 30 years after Christ’s death, that would still place the writing of them prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. This presents no major problem with their authority or accuracy. Passing on oral traditions and teachings was commonplace in the Jewish culture of that day, and memorization was highly cultivated and practiced. Also, the fact that even at that time there would have been a considerable number of eyewitnesses around to dispute and discredit any false claims, and the fact that none of the “hard sayings” of Jesus were taken from the Gospel accounts, further supports their accuracy. Had the Gospels been edited before being written down, as some liberal scholars contend, then it was a very poor job. The writers left far too many “hard sayings,” and culturally unacceptable and politically incorrect accounts that would need explaining. An example of this is that the first witnesses of the resurrection were women, who were not considered reliable witnesses in the culture of that day.

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Christmas

And neither do I. I’ve not denied his existence, so try answering my actual questions. Should precision matter? If you’re going to put unwavering faith in a higher being then yes I think so. If the simple event such as Jesus’ birth can’t be accurately confirmed or agreed upon then surely the less believable miracles are thrown into doubt?

Of course precision matters where precision matters. I have a PhD in a scientific discipline so I am well aware of that. However here we are discussing the life and times of a person who lived just over two thousand years ago, not some sort of scientific experiment! I suspect we both know that hair-splitting arguments about exactly when said person was born (plus or minus a year or two) are merely deflective tactics which attempt to stifle further debate.

With regards miracles etc – of course I have no proof in the scientific sense as we only have the writings of the New Testament. If you want to believe that these are invented fairy stories then that is your choice of course. I prefer to believe that these are actual eye witness accounts which were written down some years after the events in the same way, as for example, the personal memories of WW2 veterans that were recorded many years after the actual events. Many of these personal stories (as opposed to the large scale military events such as D-Day for example, which are well-documented in photographs or film archives) cannot be verified because the men they fought alongside either died during the war or in the interim. Would you dismiss their accounts on the basis that what they say cannot be independently verified? My Dad never spoke much about his WW2 experiences but what he did say I had no reason to disbelieve although he had no “evidence” that any of it was true.

[Croesy Blue]

Re: Christmas

There's a lot more evidence of events surrounding the personal memories to back them up though. I don't think the two can really be equated. Also the fact there was no magic during used during WW2 makes it a but easier to believe.

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Christmas

This notion that the Gospels were written hundreds of years after the events is quite a common negative argument but as Truthpaste says is not correct for the reasons he has given. I realise this will not have any bearing on this discussion as clearly the majority of contributors are firmly entrenched in their own agnostic/atheistic positions and not open to re-examining their thinking. I know I will be accused of exactly the same attitude but the big difference being is that once I held a similar “anti” stance too!
I can't help but keep coming back to my main mantra – the question “why”? Why would the early followers of Jesus invent such things? What was in it for them other than torture and execution and being burnt alive for the pleasure of the Roman Emperor Nero? No their lives were dramatically changed because of what they had witnessed and they could see that this was a new way to live – in fact the early Christians were called followers of “the way”. That is the “way” I have chosen to follow and so glad that I did.

I did not accept Jesus until I was in my late 30's and my life/lifestyle changed. Unlike some other folk on this forum who apparently must have been born with an altruistic mentality, I was not one of them. I recognised that I fell way short of what Jesus would expect and I changed. I am not a saint but a work-in-progress. The latter part of my life has been spent volunteering in helping the less fortunate in many different ways, home and abroad. I will not go into details as that would come over as boastful (“As for me, may I never boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because of that cross, my interest in this world has been crucified, and the world’s interest in me has also died”. Galatians 6:14).

Do I ever have doubts – yes I do but I am comforted by the words of Jesus (to doubting Thomas): “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29.

[Croesy Blue]

Re: Christmas

If it has such a positive affect on your life I don't think the realness matters at all anyway, just keep enjoying it yourself and don't worry what others think as it is one of those topics that no one will ever change their mind over.

I think if religion had that same effect on everyone no one would be as bothered by it, it's more the negative aspects of religion that have become more obvious that make people so against it.