The Miners Strike

[life on mars]

Re: The Miners Strike

There are youngsters around today who think Thatcher was great

There are young men around today who love Adolf Hitler

You can never tell

Why exclude young women from Hitler love ?? , that's quite a sexist stance if you don't mind me saying .

There also maybe older people who think Maggie was great ,as they voted for her , are they likely to be Nazis as I feel worried now ??

What about that Blair fella , or Corbyn , which group are attracted to them .

[pomeroy]

Re: The Miners Strike

The Miners Strike was doomed to failure because it was called by an egotistical maniac leader of a Union without a balloted mandate to bring down a democratically elected government on the pretence of preserving jobs and communities. On a grander scale the Spanish Civil War echoed this and ended up with 40 years of Franco’s dictatorship. I rest my case.

[jon1959]

Re: The Miners Strike

The Miners Strike was doomed to failure because it was called by an egotistical maniac leader of a Union without a balloted mandate to bring down a democratically elected government on the pretence of preserving jobs and communities. On a grander scale the Spanish Civil War echoed this and ended up with 40 years of Franco’s dictatorship. I rest my case.

Que?

I understand the first part of your post (although I don't agree with you) but what comparison are you trying to make with the Spanish Civil War? Was the democratically elected Spanish government doomed to failure, because..... it wanted to bring down a democratically elected government? Wasn't Franco the 'egotistical maniac leader'? Maybe a bit of explanation before you rest your case?

[life on mars]

Re: The Miners Strike

The Miners Strike was doomed to failure because it was called by an egotistical maniac leader of a Union without a balloted mandate to bring down a democratically elected government on the pretence of preserving jobs and communities. On a grander scale the Spanish Civil War echoed this and ended up with 40 years of Franco’s dictatorship. I rest my case.

Thank god that particular union leader was deafted he did them no favours and it shows his own personal greed , in a time when the NUM had very little funds and had plenty to say about rich Tories ,dreadful little man :


"""Former miners' leader Arthur Scargill has lost his High Court fight to have the National Union of Mineworkers (NUM) continue to pay for his London flat.

Mr Scargill was president of the NUM until July 2002 and led it during the miners' strike from 1984 to 1985.

He stepped down as president of the union but claimed his contract entitled him to a London home for life, or the life of his widow.

Chris Kitchen, NUM general secretary, said Mr Scargill had been "found out".

Mr Scargill said that the judgment was "perverse".

He added: "There can be no doubt that 30 years ago I was given an entitlement to a property by the union and that entitlement continued during my retirement, as it had done for all my predecessors including Lord Gormley and, after he died, his widow Lady Gormley." """

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: The Miners Strike

I try to hang around for a few pages when complex subjects come up - as it's so interesting to read the experiences and views of others in the first place. Not to hang onto anyone's coat tails but to take on board more information than I had before the thread started. The advantage of participating in a message board is that we have the benefit of more than just our own experiences and knowledge.
Having been brought up in Cardiff and only taking in what was presented in the limited media, I have no personal experience to relate but I have always thought that the miner's strike was just as much about class war as anything else. This country has been blighted with that cancer longer than many of our European neighbours and it was evident in the workplace and in the forces at that time (and still hung around in the latter for quite some time, something I do have experience of, having been a civilain working with naval officers and visiting naval bases. (I wasn't merely a junior civil servant but by some quirk I was always afforded naval officer status on naval bases, which meany I was waited on in plush restaurant areas rather than sitting down on formica tables in the ratings' canteen where it was self-service.
I'm not of the left nor the right precisely as I have never wished to fall down on one particular side and having lived and worked abroad in Germany in the late 70's the following class characteristics that we had at the time seemed to be absent or minimal:

1. Academic qualifications v qualifications in Engineering etc (white v blue collar)
2. Private schools (seemed to be less than encouraged)
3. Bosses v worker conflicts
4. Royalty
5. Honours Lists
6. Hereditary Peers
7. Apprenticeships
8. Us v them

My personal experiences and memories may have been limited or faulty and I have no interest in taking a unilateral or myopic tack of any description. I do think the class divide was partly responsible for many ills in industry in the 70's though. I think it may have changed to a great degree but perhaps it'snow more about an income divide is now drawn a bit lower down the ladder, as it were.

Just a few thoughts and I certainly don't think I know it all!

[pomeroy]

Re: The Miners Strike

Que?

I understand the first part of your post (although I don't agree with you) but what comparison are you trying to make with the Spanish Civil War? Was the democratically elected Spanish government doomed to failure, because..... it wanted to bring down a democratically elected government? Wasn't Franco the 'egotistical maniac leader'? Maybe a bit of explanation before you rest your case?

Scargill, megalomaniac leader without a mandate, tried unseccussfully to bring down a democratically elected government. Franco, megalomaniac leader, by force of arms and the help of Hitler brought down a democratically elected government but eventually democracy won the day and even he had to accede to the will of the people. In its simplistic terms that was my point. There are other examples, of course, but the real point was that a nobody like Scargill was never going to summon enough support, even amongst his own members, to oust the Thatcher government by means other than through the ballot box.

[JamesWales]

Re: The Miners Strike

Scargill, megalomaniac leader without a mandate, tried unseccussfully to bring down a democratically elected government. Franco, megalomaniac leader, by force of arms and the help of Hitler brought down a democratically elected government but eventually democracy won the day and even he had to accede to the will of the people. In its simplistic terms that was my point. There are other examples, of course, but the real point was that a nobody like Scargill was never going to summon enough support, even amongst his own members, to oust the Thatcher government by means other than through the ballot box.

As usual, left and right play out it's ideological dance and as usual common sense and compromise go out the window and the normal people suffer

[jon1959]

Re: The Miners Strike

Scargill, megalomaniac leader without a mandate, tried unseccussfully to bring down a democratically elected government. Franco, megalomaniac leader, by force of arms and the help of Hitler brought down a democratically elected government but eventually democracy won the day and even he had to accede to the will of the people. In its simplistic terms that was my point. There are other examples, of course, but the real point was that a nobody like Scargill was never going to summon enough support, even amongst his own members, to oust the Thatcher government by means other than through the ballot box.

OK. I don't agree with your description of Scargill, the NUM or the main drivers for the 1984-5 strike, although your view is shared hy a lot of people (from the editor of The Sun to Kinnock). Without the full financial and political support of the Labour Party, the TUC, and constituent TUC unions the strike was always likely to fail. It may have failed (later) even with that support.

But your analogy with the Spanish Civil War still makes no sense to me. Scargill and the NUM lost to a better prepared government backed by coal stockpiles and a militarised police operation. Franco and his fascists won against a democratically elected government and held power for 40 years. For them a triumph not a failure. The lesson from that seems to be less about megalomanic leaders and lack of mandate (or lack of a specific ballot to endorse conference policy) but that having an army, a willingness to commit atrocities, and international backers with a Condor Squadron leads to success?

[pomeroy]

Re: The Miners Strike

OK. I don't agree with your description of Scargill, the NUM or the main drivers for the 1984-5 strike, although your view is shared hy a lot of people (from the editor of The Sun to Kinnock). Without the full financial and political support of the Labour Party, the TUC, and constituent TUC unions the strike was always likely to fail. It may have failed (later) even with that support.

But your analogy with the Spanish Civil War still makes no sense to me. Scargill and the NUM lost to a better prepared government backed by coal stockpiles and a militarised police operation. Franco and his fascists won against a democratically elected government and held power for 40 years. For them a triumph not a failure. The lesson from that seems to be less about megalomanic leaders and lack of mandate (or lack of a specific ballot to endorse conference policy) but that having an army, a willingness to commit atrocities, and international backers with a Condor Squadron leads to success?

Franco won a Pyrrhic victory and hardly a triumph. Spain under Franco was as divided as it was before. My point again is that sooner or later consensus will win through and the people will decide. Scargill never commanded support of his own troops and chose the most inauspicious time to start the battle. Moreover his generals were treated with derision by the general population. Remember Emlyn Williams speech peroration “ we will win or die in the attempt “. To the vast majority of the population and NUM members that was just a joke. Kinnock was right “ lions led by donkeys”.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: The Miners Strike

I try to hang around for a few pages when complex subjects come up - as it's so interesting to read the experiences and views of others in the first place. Not to hang onto anyone's coat tails but to take on board more information than I had before the thread started. The advantage of participating in a message board is that we have the benefit of more than just our own experiences and knowledge.
Having been brought up in Cardiff and only taking in what was presented in the limited media, I have no personal experience to relate but I have always thought that the miner's strike was just as much about class war as anything else. This country has been blighted with that cancer longer than many of our European neighbours and it was evident in the workplace and in the forces at that time (and still hung around in the latter for quite some time, something I do have experience of, having been a civilain working with naval officers and visiting naval bases. (I wasn't merely a junior civil servant but by some quirk I was always afforded naval officer status on naval bases, which meany I was waited on in plush restaurant areas rather than sitting down on formica tables in the ratings' canteen where it was self-service.
I'm not of the left nor the right precisely as I have never wished to fall down on one particular side and having lived and worked abroad in Germany in the late 70's the following class characteristics that we had at the time seemed to be absent or minimal:

1. Academic qualifications v qualifications in Engineering etc (white v blue collar)
2. Private schools (seemed to be less than encouraged)
3. Bosses v worker conflicts
4. Royalty
5. Honours Lists
6. Hereditary Peers
7. Apprenticeships
8. Us v them

My personal experiences and memories may have been limited or faulty and I have no interest in taking a unilateral or myopic tack of any description. I do think the class divide was partly responsible for many ills in industry in the 70's though. I think it may have changed to a great degree but perhaps it'snow more about an income divide is now drawn a bit lower down the ladder, as it were.

Just a few thoughts and I certainly don't think I know it all!

[pomeroy]

Re: The Miners Strike

IMO and many others saw Scargill’s ill judged attempt to overthrow the Thatcher govt. as a perverse last stab by a major union to have some kind of power sharing, if not outright power, in the body politic. It failed dismally because the vast majority of people didn’t want to know. The following years saw substantial dismantling of union power by parliament which has not been rescinded since by parties of any persuasion. Even though there has been an increase in union membership for the last 4 years trade union membership in 2020 was only 23.7% of all employees.

[nugent]

Re: The Miners Strike

No point me getting involved. I'm a staunch paid up member of the tory party.
And come from a council house up the valleys.
Thank fack thatcher closed the mines
A. Lots of us youngsters could have ended up down there.
B. The snowflake where there's a blame there's a claim culture would have wiped the floor with compensation.

And I also hate socialism.
I've worked bloody hard for my money , the more of it I get to keep the better.
Fack the feckless

[Tuerto]

Re: The Miners Strike

IMO and many others saw Scargill’s ill judged attempt to overthrow the Thatcher govt. as a perverse last stab by a major union to have some kind of power sharing, if not outright power, in the body politic. It failed dismally because the vast majority of people didn’t want to know. The following years saw substantial dismantling of union power by parliament which has not been rescinded since by parties of any persuasion. Even though there has been an increase in union membership for the last 4 years trade union membership in 2020 was only 23.7% of all employees.

Yeah, but Scargill was correct, as shown in the documents in 2016. Thatcher and Mac gregor lied through their teeth about pit closures and the police were instructed to attack miners and criminalise them for picketing. It was an attack on the working class.

[Tuerto]

Re: The Miners Strike

No point me getting involved. I'm a staunch paid up member of the tory party.
And come from a council house up the valleys.
Thank fack thatcher closed the mines
A. Lots of us youngsters could have ended up down there.
B. The snowflake where there's a blame there's a claim culture would have wiped the floor with compensation.

And I also hate socialism.
I've worked bloody hard for my money , the more of it I get to keep the better.
Fack the feckless

You put screws in wood with an impact driver. Shut up.