Meanwhile, in Germany…

[Tuerto]

Re: Meanwhile, in Germany…

I don't think that, but I saw Glatzel play for us enough times to realise that he was never going to be a regular starter for a Championship team, so if he's scoring plenty of goals for Hamburg then there is a pretty simple explanation and it's not Cardiff City ruins strikers.

And they don't improve them either.

[City123]

Re: Meanwhile, in Germany…

Yeah, good point, but surely, whoever scouted him must have seen that glatzel wasn't at his best with his back to goal, he wasn't a physical player in terms of holding the ball up and pinning defenders, which is how we played, exclusively. He looked his best when he dropped off from the play, he was a second ball striker, he could never make the first contact. Yet we spent 6 million on him and seemingly ignored his strengths. I'm not attempting to re write history though, at times he looked poor and completely out of the game, he used to have to force aggression out of himself, and it made him look awkward. Poor bugger must have been exasperated by it all.

We spent a fair bit of money over those 2 years or so on players that didn't really fit the way we play at all, beyond Glatzel we spent serious money on Murphy, Reid and Tomlin, even players like Ward & Cunningham were brought in for millions with no obvious plan of where or how they'd play

It's like we spent money on a team we wanted to be, without ever bothering to hire managers who would implement a certain way of playing

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Meanwhile, in Germany…

You're the one who seems to think that the quality of the opposition is irrelevant when assessing the performance of a player.

I’ll concede that the Championship is probably a better league than Bundesliga 2, but to nowhere near the extent you clearly believe it is. However, it’s delusional to think that a poor Championship striker (as you believe Glatzel was) who scores around five goals a season would, first, go to a club like Hamburg (who I’m sure would see us off around six or seven times out of ten) and go straight into their first team and, second, then score goals for them at the rate Glatzel has done for more than a season and a half.

Incidentally, I notice you’ve ignored TLG’s very good point about Tommy Doyle barely getting a game for Hamburg in the months immediately before he came here to become an important regular starter in our side - that doesn’t tie in with your narrative does it.

[LeningradCowboy]

Re: Meanwhile, in Germany…

I’ll concede that the Championship is probably a better league than Bundesliga 2, but to nowhere near the extent you clearly believe it is. However, it’s delusional to think that a poor Championship striker (as you believe Glatzel was) who scores around five goals a season would, first, go to a club like Hamburg (who I’m sure would see us off around six or seven times out of ten) and go straight into their first team and, second, then score goals for them at the rate Glatzel has done for more than a season and a half.

Incidentally, I notice you’ve ignored TLG’s very good point about Tommy Doyle barely getting a game for Hamburg in the months immediately before he came here to become an important regular starter in our side - that doesn’t tie in with your narrative does it.

I don't know why Tommy Doyle didn't play much for Hamburg, but since my argument is not that Hamburg is a worse team than Cardiff, but is that the opposition Hamburg plays against are on average worse than the opposition Cardiff plays against, I'm not sure it's quite as good a point as you think.

[The Lone Gunman]

Re: Meanwhile, in Germany…

I don't know why Tommy Doyle didn't play much for Hamburg, but since my argument is not that Hamburg is a worse team than Cardiff, but is that the opposition Hamburg plays against are on average worse than the opposition Cardiff plays against, I'm not sure it's quite as good a point as you think.

Really we only have three players we can consider when comparing the two leagues - Glatzel, who struggled at City but is scoring plenty for Hamburg, Doyle, who couldn’t get a game at Hamburg but walked straight into the City side, and Collins, who had come from a mid-ranking Bundesliga 2 team but looked comfortably good enough for the Championship.

I don’t believe we can simply say with any confidence that Bundesliga 2 is weaker than the Championship (especially this season), and I reckon there were plenty of factors involved in Glatzel’s struggles at Cardiff.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Meanwhile, in Germany…

I don't know why Tommy Doyle didn't play much for Hamburg, but since my argument is not that Hamburg is a worse team than Cardiff, but is that the opposition Hamburg plays against are on average worse than the opposition Cardiff plays against, I'm not sure it's quite as good a point as you think.

Yes, but it does rather make you look like someone who is trying to argue that Bundesliga 2 sides are full of mediocre Championship strikers who’ll score shedloads because all of the defenders they come up against are donkeys, but the midfielders are so good that an England under 21 international midfielder barely gets a kick - doesn’t really add up does it.

[Swiss Peter]

Re: Meanwhile, in Germany…

I don't know why Tommy Doyle didn't play much for Hamburg, but since my argument is not that Hamburg is a worse team than Cardiff, but is that the opposition Hamburg plays against are on average worse than the opposition Cardiff plays against, I'm not sure it's quite as good a point as you think.

This debate about relative standards comes up from time to time, and of course there is no definitive answer. However having watched St Pauli a few times in the last 12 months I think this assertion is probably correct. FWIW.

[LeningradCowboy]

Re: Meanwhile, in Germany…

Really we only have three players we can consider when comparing the two leagues - Glatzel, who struggled at City but is scoring plenty for Hamburg, Doyle, who couldn’t get a game at Hamburg but walked straight into the City side, and Collins, who had come from a mid-ranking Bundesliga 2 team but looked comfortably good enough for the Championship.

I don’t believe we can simply say with any confidence that Bundesliga 2 is weaker than the Championship (especially this season), and I reckon there were plenty of factors involved in Glatzel’s struggles at Cardiff.

Why do we only have to consider players who've appeared for Cardiff or Hamburg? There are 17 other teams in Bundesliga 2 and 23 other teams in the Championship.

Weren't you arguing in another thread that Collins hadn't played enough games for us before he got injured to know how good he is?

[LeningradCowboy]

Re: Meanwhile, in Germany…

Yes, but it does rather make you look like someone who is trying to argue that Bundesliga 2 sides are full of mediocre Championship strikers who’ll score shedloads because all of the defenders they come up against are donkeys, but the midfielders are so good that an England under 21 international midfielder barely gets a kick - doesn’t really add up does it.

It doesn't add up because it's a straw man that you've created and not my argument.

[WJ99mobile]

Re: Meanwhile, in Germany…

Towards the end of his time here Glatzel was bullied off pretty much every ball.

I supported Glatzel but even I got tired of him towards the end as we simply didn't have the style of play to allow him to score in the only way he could.

Even if he was 'OK' in the air now, when was the last time we saw a decent cross.

We're crap, and we were crap then too.

[LeningradCowboy]

Re: Meanwhile, in Germany…

Collins played three games. He looked promising in the two home games but bang average at Reading. His loss was a blow, but he was injured far too early in the season to draw any firm conclusions.

Apparently he looked comfortably good enough for the Championship.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Meanwhile, in Germany…

It doesn't add up because it's a straw man that you've created and not my argument.

You think Glatzel is crap and argue that his scoring rate of around six in every ten games is solely down to the poor defenders he comes up against, yet you can offer no explanation as to why a good quality Championship level midfielder couldn’t get a game in Glatzel’s team - why does this not represent an accurate summary of what you’ve said at various stages of this thread? Why not just accept that this subject is not as straightforward as the Glatzel is rubbish, end of argument line you’ve been peddling?

[Harry Lime]

Re: Meanwhile, in Germany…

I have watched quite a bit of B2 for several seasons and I think it's comfortably on par with the championship on every level.
This exact debate was on here several months ago but why not have a bit of a Grundenhagen Day.

[The Lone Gunman]

Re: Meanwhile, in Germany…

Why do we only have to consider players who've appeared for Cardiff or Hamburg? There are 17 other teams in Bundesliga 2 and 23 other teams in the Championship.

Weren't you arguing in another thread that Collins hadn't played enough games for us before he got injured to know how good he is?

I don’t know of any other players who have featured in both leagues in recent times, but if you do then I bow to your greater knowledge.

As for Collins, my argument is that we hadn’t seen enough of him to declare him a top player by Championship standards, which some seem keen to do. However, I thought he looked easily good enough to play regularly in this division. Didn’t you?

[The Lone Gunman]

Re: Meanwhile, in Germany…

Apparently he looked comfortably good enough for the Championship.

I thought so. Do you have a different view?