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Attachment 4873
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You have to be a complete moron to think the tories are good for the NHS, or any other public service really.
I know , especially as there has been no exceptional event like a pandemic effecting business as usual .Quote:
Originally Posted by Doucas
So you're just going to ignore then that things were going to shit before 2020 as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
Nope we need to fix it and fast even if we all pay more , and not moan about paying more for the fundamental and obvious fact it's a serious provision to fund as it grows and folk live longer because of the same worthwhile investments in treatment to extend life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doucas
They weren't good in Wales either were they?Quote:
Originally Posted by Doucas
Neither main party has treated the NHS particularly well over the years in my opinion
Are you completely oblivious to how wages have stagnated while the billionaire class (who own our politicians and media) basically doubled their wealth during the pandemic?Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
This is the source of every single problem in the UK and I don't know what it'll take for the older generations to see it.
Yeah it's a mystery why things would get worse when a country receives cuts to its budget from Westminster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elwood Blues
Nope not oblivious in fact we know 2019/20, the wage cost NHS staff was £56.1 billion (46.6 % of the NHS budget.) See the issue there (46% ) its bugger all to do with billionaires it's about an organisation too big to fund and manage and folk living longer due to a well funded NHS .Quote:
Originally Posted by Doucas
Yeh bugger looking at performance and delivering care , hy Sepsis in Wales us off the scale let's blame the money supplier, great out .Quote:
Originally Posted by Doucas
I'm sure they could do with more dosh big question is what would they do with it ?
It's a lazy answer.
They havent. Welsh budget only goes in one direction. And the amount of govt expenditure per person in Wales is far higher than in England.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doucas
You do know most NHS staff are paid less than they are in other western countries yeah?Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
I'll ask you this, why could we used to afford it, why can other countries afford it but the UK can't?
You've missed the point about the billionaire class, don't you think it's weird that there are more billionaires than ever in the UK, and they're richer than ever but wages are stagnating? TrIcKlE DoWn EcOnOmIcS.
I don't know how you can't see you've had 30+ years of right wing media screaming this down your throat so they can further privatise the NHS (which has worked just so well for energy and trains). This will lead to worse outcomes mark my words.
You literally have everything you want, tory government and brexit yet everything is still getting worse. I cannot name one thing getting better in the UK. Can you?
What I do know the wage bill big .Quote:
Originally Posted by Doucas
Performance management is need as is value for money .
Pouring more and more money into a system does not fix things modernisation does .
Getting existing staff GP's to better cover weekends will reduce waiting lists .
Charging people who can afford for minor non critical medial needs needs is needed .
Look at what's been prescribed and why.
Abuse of A&E and violence towards the staff due to over indulgence along with clogging up the real A&E needs .
Blair brought waiting lists down and he was the last real radical politician to look at it and yes that included privatisation of certain elements..
Remember this view :
build a health service based on four BEVAN principles:
free at the point of use ( when does the build finish )
available to everyone who needed it ( that was designed for the poor not the rich )
paid for out of general taxation ( that is being done but needs more via NI)
used responsibly. ( this is the key one )
when Bevan wrote this people sadly died a lot younger , population was much lower , they had no access to drugs that prolonged life, people weren't given stuff like mobility cars and other at home equipment , prescriptions were so much lower in supply , complicated expensive state of the art theatre ward equipment was not available , road deaths /injuries were a small percentage of hospital omissions , Crickey you could go on for hours .
Its too big , its out lived its original purpose.
Do you ever stop lying? Why do you make stuff up? Honestly, if you read on some batty twitter site that Cardiff won 4-0 on saturday you would believe it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doucas
Just stop it, look at facts and stop spouting nonsense. You playing this game and using the NHS as a football, some kind of game does absolutely nothing to help the NHS.
And I've just spent an hour on the phone to a friend who did a 14 hour shift at Princess of Wales health board. There are serious issues but this lefty buzzword bingo stuff you come up with never gets mentioned.
Overall, there is no evidence of a significant increase in spending on private providers or widespread privatisation of services in recent years.
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publica...nhs-privatised
I mean... it's beyond laughable you would post an article from a thinktank funded by GlaxoSmithKline who are getting NHS contracts awarded to them. I knew you didn't have the ability to think critically and to analyse sources before but this is beyond a joke now.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Tell me one thing that's gotten better in the UK over the past 12 years.
Just to add to this, show me my other lies? Are wages not stagnating? Is poverty not increasing? Is foodbank use not increasing? Are houses not becoming more and more unaffordable? Is wealth inequality not increasing? Is the NHS not struggling more than it has been (even before the pandemic)?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Just a few off the top of my head (all with sources) And no one doubts enormous problems too, which you never offer a solution for. The point is, things aren't all bad. And all things that are bad arent caused by the government - many problems occur in all countries irrespective of government and cannot be solved without worsening another issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doucas
Unemployment has halved
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...mployment-rate
Minimum wage gone from £5.93 an hour to £8.91
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation..._Wage_Act_1998
Income tax on the richest gone from 40% to 45% (I assume you support that)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation..._Wage_Act_1998
COvid ruins the data but we are no longer in recession
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...-growth-annual
Murder rate has fallen
.
Youth unemployment down from around 20% to 11%
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...mployment-rate
Covid ruined it, but government deficit vastly reduced
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...ernment-budget
EMployment rate up about 5%
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...mployment-rate
Stock market well up (good for pensions held in it)
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...m/stock-market
Green energy well up
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...g.png&usqp=CAU
Housing starts more than doubled
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...housing-starts
No one is saying its perfect or far form it but we need to accept there is error within NHS and how its run its not all just evil Tory policy as so many jump to .Quote:
Originally Posted by Doucas
Personal Tax allowance s under the Tory's has gone up significantly as well greatly helping the lower wage scalesQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_allowance
Absolutely. That, undeniably has been very positive.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
And I will add - there are numerous statistics going in the wrong direction. My point, as ever, is that things are mixed and those who present a black/white, good/bad picture of things are wrong to do so.
According to the graph housing starts are still less than the 1980s - 2000s, we need far more house building in the UK, like we saw in the 50s as house prices are becoming more and more unaffordable.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
I agree with you, we do need more. :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Doucas
Something I’m involved in is house building, and there are some interesting and existing developments afoot.
Modular Housing is expected to take off in a big way and you can build a house from scratch in three/six weeks. It’s affordable and eco-friendly. The Forest Green Rovers of the housing sector.
https://theweehousecompany.co.uk/con...dable-housing/
Thats great, although the construction cost is only a small part of the reason that houses are so expensiveQuote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
So you’re factoring in Covid when it suits, but making no allowance for the 2008 global crash when it comes to the figures the Conservatives inherited? In essence then, you’re not blaming the Tories for Covid (fair enough, even if their cuts left us worse off to deal with it and they ignored the results of the Cygnus exercise in 2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Cygnus), but, effectively, blaming Labour for what happened in 2008 by making no allowances for the global crash about eighteen months earlier - that hardly seems fair..Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
A look at the forecast section in some of those links you posted makes for sobering reading and I think giving any Government credit for not being in recession is a bit rich when the proportion of time the UK historically spends in recession is so small.