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I read a thread on here asking for Drakeford to let fans into CCS in Aug, I honestly didnt realise they couldnt, 60 K in Wembley soonQuote:
Originally Posted by Michael Morris
As you say, lets get back to life, the vac is doing its job of keeping people out of hospital
The recommended gap between mRNA (Pfizer ad Moderna) vaccines is 4 weeks. This is what the CDC has in its directives. This was the regimen used during the vaccine testing phases. It's the same across all states. There may be some variation across states based on the roll outs.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue matt
I think the UK change to an 8 week gap for AZ was based on trying to get a first shot out to as many as possible and not based on the clinical trials (which I think was 4 weeks).
It was a 12 week gap and applied to all vaccines - not just AZ. You are right about the reason for the change from the trial gap.Quote:
Originally Posted by az city
Earlier this year the NHSCovid app was launched for people to book vaccine appointments online - and there was a fixed 12 week gap between the first and second (and it prevented anyone booking just a first jab - to complete the online appointment booking both dates were needed). Appointments arranged via GPs were a bit more flexible. Now it is 'walk in'.
Thx for the correction. My sister is a nurse in Cardiff and she was mightily pissed off in January when her second Pfizer was cancelled because of the change.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
The NHS website still lists the following as symptoms which will allow you to book a PCR test:
- a high temperature
- a new, continuous cough
- a loss or change to your sense of smell or taste
It appears that the Delta Variant has different presenting symptoms though so we could easily be missing lots of cases, but equally it does appear link between virus and death seems to have been broken. Most recognise that it's new territory (the end of bad covid in the UK?) but we should still be concerned about abroad (how many people will suffer abroad where vaccines haven't reached, what happens if new variant resistant to vaccines?), long covid and how much has been put on hold throughout covid restrictions.
Are we still going to wear masks indoors and avoid cramped, enclosed spaces? Is that going to return in the winter to help reduce spread of other viruses?
So you think we should be locked down for ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by surge
So you think that the current situation whereby we're allowed to go drinking inside pubs (something that was always very important to you based on the number of times you referred to it over the past fifteen months or so), attend sporting events, go to restaurants etc. is the same as a lockdown?Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
According to one of my dog walking mates yesterday, his two sons had to wait fifteen weeks for their second jabs - presumably, the priority has been to give as many people as possible a first jab?Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
Im quite enjoying table service in pubs.
Hope it stays.
Before I answer that can you define what you mean by "locked down" please?Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
We've seen the positive impact mask wearing in enclosed spaces, good ventilation and good hygiene has had on reducing spread of a virus (anecdotally that would include flu last winter) so if I say those tactics should be kept am I meeting your definition of "lockdown"?
In your view are we saying it's freedom as there was before we knew about covid and anything else is "lockdown"?
Honestly, I re-read my message and wondered if I had said anything different to what MM had posted when he concluded time to get on with things and whether my message was superfluous. I don't think being aware that covid is more than death rates in the UK means you don't ever want to open up.
How can we act as one unless we're taking into account Scotland doesn't want to open up until July 19th? Remember, if they say "act as one" ask them what it means in practice if one nation wants to go at a much quicker pace than the other three and where compromise is struck.Quote:
Robert Jenrick asked by #Marr about whether surge in Covid cases in Scotland could delay restrictions being lifted elsewhere in UK.
"We would like the whole Union to move as one... in England our view is that things are looking positive for June 19."
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/stat...08650997772291
Crazily enough, there are some people who do in a recent survey…..I guess they are the types who never lived anywayQuote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
'Lockdown' whether full or partial is anything which, by law dictat or government order prevent an individual from doing the things that before Covid he could do without question.Quote:
Originally Posted by surge
So asking people to be sensible, wear masks in crowded places wash hands, don't cough on others, is not lockdown it is people using common sense. Telling us we will not get served if we are not wearing a mask is lockdown. The difference is being made or ordered, and doing it on good advice for the protection of your family and others
Positive impact. No we have not. It is like a construction site having security, nothing happens so the accountants say the cost of security was wasted. It's a flawed argument. We have worn masks ventilated etc, but we had no place where not wearing them led to a different outcome so we don't actually know if they had an effect or if the same thing would have happened anyway.
you talk of maybe in the future a variant may resist the vaccines. Once a vaccine is in place it is a fairly simple procedure to 'tweak' it to cover such events. (The people who make them say this), so should we live in constant fear of the may (only might mind you) one day perhaps next week or in 2052 be a variant that is vaccine resistant. Imagine if they had done the same thing with smallpox, flu Polio and all the other things that have threatened normal life in the past, when they had far less knowledge of prevention than we do now?
The stated purpose of everything that has been done and ordered was always to save lives and protect the NHS. Both those things have been achieved and those getting sick now either have mild attacks or if they go into hospital on average spend less time there recover fasted do not need ventilating and do not need intensive care.
so the reasons for lockdown of any kind are gone. As I said I see nothing wrong in doing things because they makes sense but having laws in place, and Wales made everything laws, which prohibit normal life and restrict freedoms is not a situation that can stand indefrinitely.
Who are you to tell me what I think? Read my reply to surge. Anything you are forced to do or not do by law connected to covid is lockdown or partial lockdown. you can dress it up any way you like but it doesn't change the fact that the population is being controlled and subdued. It cannot sustain. I actually don't mind waiter service in pubs, and my boy is making a fortune in extra hours, but if I want to stand at the bat then I should be able to do so. The stupidity of the whole thing is no better illustrated by the assumption that you cannot catch covid sitting down. In a pub as soon as you stand up you have to put a mask on, this to prevent you passing the virus to others, but if someone wearing a mask comes to your table you can talk to them and breath on them and you won't pass the virus to them. Oh really? It is nonsense. Restaurants and pubs are better regulated establishments than Tesco or Primark or Wembley ever will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Are you sure they've said that? The vaccines just need a simple tweak for all future variants and mutations?Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
It doesn't seem like the kind of thing a scientist would say.
Yes they did. They have stated that if a variant learns to avoid the current vaccines its a simple thing to adjust them and there would be no need for a further 18 month plus trial and development. It's what they do with the flu vaccine every year.Quote:
Originally Posted by lardy
Warning: I do use the word 'simple' as a relative description of the process compared to making the original :hehe: simple for brilliant medical scientists that is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
"The stupidity of the whole thing is no better illustrated by the assumption that you cannot catch covid sitting down. In a pub as soon as you stand up you have to put a mask on, this to prevent you passing the virus to others, but if someone wearing a mask comes to your table you can talk to them and breath on them and you won't pass the virus to them."
Do you often breath on people?
The reason we have to wear our masks when we stand up is to stop us passing on the virus to other people, on the basis that we may be carrying the virus and be asymptomatic. Why is this still difficult to understand?
The reason that we wear masks is not to protect ourselves, but to protect others. 18 months on, people would have to be thick to not get it by now.
The reason we are encouraged not to stand at the bar is because, by standing at the bar, we increase the number of contacts we make unnecessarily. Why is this still difficult to understand?
When we are sat at a table, as I was last night, with people outside of our bubble - we should maintain social distancing. Why is this still difficult to understand?
A member of the waiting staff will wear a mask because that person is not just serving you, but potentially 50-100 people every night. Why is this difficult to understand?
That waiter/waitress is wearing a mask to protect you. Why is that difficult to understand?
When the waiter comes to your table, he/she is not spending 30 minutes chatting to you at close distance. Why is that difficult to understand?
When the waiter comes to your table, it is a fleeting encounter and is low risk. Why is that difficult to understand?
If you stand at a bar, you are likely to be standing with people outside of your bubble, and the number of people you are in contact with will increase unnecessarily. Is this difficult for you to understand? Is it?
If someone comes to your table, do you really think you can breath on them? Is this something you used to do before the pandemic?
What is it about the current restrictions that is preventing you from carrying out your daily tasks?
One word of caution, my cousin is currently in Intensive Care having had both doses of the vaccine. She is 40, she is a keen runner, she is not overweight, she has no known "underlying" health conditions. She contracted the virus in a pub on her 40th birthday. How do we know this? 4 of her friends (in a group of 9) also tested positive. Another word of caution, her 12 year old daughter is also very seriously ill having picked up the virus from her mother. Her husband, meanwhile, has tested positive but has shown absolutely no symptoms at all.
I agree some pubs are better regulated than shops. I now do all my shopping online to avoid the possibility. I have been out to a few restaurants and bars though because it is clearly not as risky and, if such a place gets a bit overcrowded, I just up and leave.
But, not all pubs are so well regulated.
Out of interest, did they say how simple it would be to create 120 million doses and put them in the arms of 60 million British people before the new variant took hold? Did they also expand and say how easy it would be to quickly vaccinate the entire population of the world to prevent the new variant becoming widespread and, possibly, mutating further still?Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
It isn't what they do with the flu vaccine every year by the way. The flu vaccine is based on the most prevalent strain of flu in the Southern Hemisphere during their winter. More often than not, that strain is one for which a long established vaccine exists.
:wave:Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Allez Allez
:wave:Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Allez Allez
Thank-you, it's not often people change their mind on the internet, but glad you have taken the fact of the way the flu vaccine works, that it differs to your assertion, and admitted you are wrong. Very noble of you. :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
:wave:Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Allez Allez
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
Thank-you. It isn't often people admit they got it wrong on the internet. The fact that, even if a new vaccine could be quickly tweaked, it would take a monumental effort to vaccinate the entire population of the country and, as a result, restrictions would have to be introduced in the meantime is a sad one. Obviously, we would both like it to be different, but it is what it is. :thumbup:
Well, let's face it, you spent an awful lot of time talking about not being allowed to go to pubs from March 2020 and it seems you're still not happy. I broadly agree with you actually however, because, having been told throughout 2020 that vaccines we're the thing that would make all the difference in the fight against Covid, it now appears that was not quite true - we were continually told during the various lockdowns that things would be back to "normal" in spring 2021 and it's going to be increasingly hard to hold a line that is essentially "ah yes, but" when the public remember the line they were being fed throughout most of 2020 and early 2021.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
We differ in our interpretation of the word "lockdown" - I certainly don't see what we have now as another lockdown, more as living with certain restrictions, the life I was living under what I define as lockdown is quite a bit different to the one I am now.
In fairness, I think only politicians claimed that the vaccine was the way out. It clearly isn't. The scientists certainly didn't claim that it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
The key stat for me, these days, is the infection rate in the local area. Currently, around 1 in 400 people in my area have the virus (extrapolated from the ONS). As a result, I think things are quite low risk in general. That rate will increase as restrictions are eased, and I think that is when we will hit the crunch of how effective the vaccines really are and, are they effective enough not to fill the hospitals with sick people and the ground with corpses.
Not being able to go to a pub 6 months ago compared to, being able to go to the pub but sometimes wearing a mask is a huge step forward. I know some people of the gammon variety get upset at having to wear a mask in Wetherspoon's, but that is something to laugh at and celebrate.
I tend to use the pub argument because, yes I do love the pub and I personally like to stand at the bar although others don't, but also because it is always the first thing that the pro lockdown lobby point at as a cause and the last thing on any politicians list to allow back to normal. It is similar to the perception that it is football supporters who always cause trouble so ban them but rugby supporters are just showing high spirits. Like the pub, they are the political/medical whipping boy.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
When I say lockdown, it is as an all encompassing term to refer to anything that we are being told, ordered or forced to do that we may not otherwise normally do. I appreciate its a broad scope but it is easier than trying to define the different levels of 'can and can't' which seem to vary at the whim of politicians and their control freak, worse case scenario always, scientific advisors.
So we aren't really so far apart. As I say, I've quite got used to waiter service and have had it in other countries I've lived in as a norm, its just not the way a British pub would operate in 'normal' times.
My biggest concern is the deliberate failure by government to repeal all the things they have passed into law in the last 18 months, choosing to quietly keep them on the statute books "just in case". That is scary. I believe the laws passed in Westminster have an automatic end date unless revoted on but I'm not so sure about those in Wales. A lot of things were made laws in wales, I can still here Drakeford saying "Here in Wales we have passed this into law to make it clear etc etc" and as a lot of it was done by executive order, (correct term?) or so I'm led to believe I worry about their actual status.
Another point Bob, is that the medics cry out about how many people are testing positive but they are testing far far more people now than they were before and the numbers aren't as high. Even the people who do the analysis of the numbers accept that if you test more people it's inevitable that you will capture more positive results, but the vast number today are mild infection that require no hospitalisation, and those that do tend not to require invasive oxygen or intensive care. A vastly different scenario to last June or December
I’ve clearly been on the cautious side in debates on here about lockdowns and Covid, but I agree that we appear to be in a different situation now than we were late last year and earlier this year. I’m no expert, but every October I have a flu jab which we’re told offers around 60 per cent protection. Flu can kill 20,000 a year in the UK I understand and, obviously, I’m classed as being in the at risk group, but I don’t give flu another thought once I’ve had my jab.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
Compare that to Covid where we’re told there is ninety per cent plus protection from hospitalisation and/or death after two jabs. At sixty five and overweight, I have risk factors for the disease, but I’m happy to take the risk knowing that I could be one of those who is unlucky. As for protecting others, I think I’ll continue to wear a mask in places like supermarkets even if it’s decided they are no longer needed.
If what I’ve put in the last two paragraphs is wrong and I’m missing something important, then I’d say the authorities are not explaining why I and others are wrong clearly enough. I accept that Covid has not gone away because of the vaccine and there are still risks involved, but the arguments for maintaining restrictions seem more vague now and those in Government in London or Cardiff are bound to face a tougher task in convincing a public that have observed the restrictions imposed conscientiously in the past that they have to do so again.
.
As someone who has been broadly supportive of Mark Drakeford and Welsh Labour in their handling of things, I’ve not heard a coherent argument yet as to why Wales has to have lower attendances at sporting events than in England where Covid rates have generally tended to be higher in recent months.
Back in spring 2020 there were a lot of people saying that getting rid of restrictions will be harder than going into them - I never really understood what they meant by that, but I have a better idea now having experienced what has happened since people starting getting their second jab.
Some governments will make laws, some will give out clear messages to a population ready to listen and some will give out wishy-washy messages to a population where some don't want to be told what to do...
- Vaccine's have achieved what they were asked to do with most are saying they've broken link between picking up the virus and dying, at least as much as a vaccine which doesn't offer 100% protection can.
- We've heard a lot of talk about flu death numbers but that doesn't have to be the target and could be reduced by us keeping some of the tactics used during past year: mask wearing indoors, reducing contacts when sick, good ventilation and hygiene standards. Smart health tactics reduce spread of viruses.
- Let's wait and see which government minister's lead from the front to say they'll still be wearing a mask indoors and avoiding cramped enclosed spaces even after "freedom day(s)". Covid isn't over in the UK and certainly isn't over in rest of the world despite us appearing to have passed worst of it in the UK.
- If the UK government wanted a one nation approach there should definitely be consideration given to Scotland not wanting to open up fully until July 19th.
- If we revert back to having to wait 4 days until getting SSP then people will still go out and spread viruses around because they can't afford to wait that long. Which minister is going to be first to call for covid-SSP rules to stay to reduce risk of what's expected to be bad flu season?
As ever, the message most needs to be taken on board by those least likely to be giving it attention and some of those listening will overreact going too far the other way.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-57707992
More of Wales' Covid-19 rules could change over the next few weeks from being legal requirements to government advice, according to a Welsh minister.
Different countries report in different ways. In Poland it’s only recorded if there is medical intervention. The advice given to people with Covid is simply to self isolate, there’s no record. Having said that when I had it in the UK last year no one was interested, I rang the hotline & my GP but they weren’t interested in recording it.
I think we all get that you just want to do what you want and don't give a bugger for the effects. You have literally hundreds if not thousands of posts telling everyone. Fair enough. If that's the way you roll. But what I find irksome is you constantly misinform in your posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
One example here - there are NOT more tests being carried out now than at the beginning of 2021 as you claim in this post. Check any data source you like. Here's the official one: https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/testing
"They" aren't finding more cases because "they" are doing more testing. There is an upsurge in cases because there are more cases. End of. What you're coming out with is straight out of the Trump Covid-denying playbook.
Please stop posting wild inaccuracies, what is effectively your biased take on the situation and misinformation. Provide links to reputable sites/data to back up what claims you make.
A vaccine resistant variant would be a complete disaster. A new vaccine needed and enough for the entire worlds population.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
Last week my daughters school had 4 cases, picked up with the LFT
2 in Yr 7, 1 in yr 8 and 9, close contacts were sent home, about 50 children on thursday
this morning, get text to say Yr's 7,8 and 9 closed, thats over 1000 children
so in 2 weeks time,social distancing and face masks will be no more, 60,000 in wembley, yet they are still closing whole yr groups down
we are either living life or not, how long we going to drag this on for
They are finding more cases because they're doing more testing, not my take on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by az city
It is accepted that if you test more people you will find more positive cases. But if you look at the positive cases as a percentage of the tests taken it is far lower than in the first and second wave, far lower. They are now doing over 1 million tests a .day whereas before it wasn't a quarter of that. There are definitely not more cases although rates are rising, and it is clear that of those cases far fewer result in hospitalisation intensive care and/or death.
It's not a case of what I want, its the fact that the population has been restricted by law and the reason given for those restrictions no longer pertain so they should be removed. Nothing wrong with people continuing to do thigs because it is a right thing to do but that is not the same as being made to do it.
Where did I claim that the test number related to the start of 2021? Don't make things up to suit your argument.
I do not post wild inaccuracies and I do not post disinformation, you just don't like what I say.
I'm not making claims I'm stating facts.
Just heard a shop assistant being interviewed on the radio saying that an increasing number of people have stopped wearing masks where she works. I didn’t catch where she lived, but, having just got back from one of the two supermarket shops I do each week, everyone had a mask on and it must be months since I last saw someone shopping without one.
Same down here Bob, people in West Wales seem to be very compliant.
I fear for shop assistants, bar staff if the rules change in England and Wales keeps it's more cautious approach. The hoardes are descending from England on their staycation now. I see trouble ahead.
On a slightly different track, I see no mention recently on here about long covid. Because of the vaccination rollout there are few deaths. I understand though that long covid is a real issue even for younger people.
My view is that mask wearing and general restrictions on distancing should still continue for a while longer.
Here's something for you to think about AZ, before you accuse people of posting inaccuracies for their own agenda.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ovid-pandemic/
so clearly not my opinion.