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So you think we should be locked down for ever.Originally Posted by surge
So you think that the current situation whereby we're allowed to go drinking inside pubs (something that was always very important to you based on the number of times you referred to it over the past fifteen months or so), attend sporting events, go to restaurants etc. is the same as a lockdown?
According to one of my dog walking mates yesterday, his two sons had to wait fifteen weeks for their second jabs - presumably, the priority has been to give as many people as possible a first jab?
Im quite enjoying table service in pubs.
Hope it stays.
Before I answer that can you define what you mean by "locked down" please?
We've seen the positive impact mask wearing in enclosed spaces, good ventilation and good hygiene has had on reducing spread of a virus (anecdotally that would include flu last winter) so if I say those tactics should be kept am I meeting your definition of "lockdown"?
In your view are we saying it's freedom as there was before we knew about covid and anything else is "lockdown"?
Honestly, I re-read my message and wondered if I had said anything different to what MM had posted when he concluded time to get on with things and whether my message was superfluous. I don't think being aware that covid is more than death rates in the UK means you don't ever want to open up.
How can we act as one unless we're taking into account Scotland doesn't want to open up until July 19th? Remember, if they say "act as one" ask them what it means in practice if one nation wants to go at a much quicker pace than the other three and where compromise is struck.Robert Jenrick asked by #Marr about whether surge in Covid cases in Scotland could delay restrictions being lifted elsewhere in UK.
"We would like the whole Union to move as one... in England our view is that things are looking positive for June 19."
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/stat...08650997772291
Crazily enough, there are some people who do in a recent survey…..I guess they are the types who never lived anyway
'Lockdown' whether full or partial is anything which, by law dictat or government order prevent an individual from doing the things that before Covid he could do without question.
So asking people to be sensible, wear masks in crowded places wash hands, don't cough on others, is not lockdown it is people using common sense. Telling us we will not get served if we are not wearing a mask is lockdown. The difference is being made or ordered, and doing it on good advice for the protection of your family and others
Positive impact. No we have not. It is like a construction site having security, nothing happens so the accountants say the cost of security was wasted. It's a flawed argument. We have worn masks ventilated etc, but we had no place where not wearing them led to a different outcome so we don't actually know if they had an effect or if the same thing would have happened anyway.
you talk of maybe in the future a variant may resist the vaccines. Once a vaccine is in place it is a fairly simple procedure to 'tweak' it to cover such events. (The people who make them say this), so should we live in constant fear of the may (only might mind you) one day perhaps next week or in 2052 be a variant that is vaccine resistant. Imagine if they had done the same thing with smallpox, flu Polio and all the other things that have threatened normal life in the past, when they had far less knowledge of prevention than we do now?
The stated purpose of everything that has been done and ordered was always to save lives and protect the NHS. Both those things have been achieved and those getting sick now either have mild attacks or if they go into hospital on average spend less time there recover fasted do not need ventilating and do not need intensive care.
so the reasons for lockdown of any kind are gone. As I said I see nothing wrong in doing things because they makes sense but having laws in place, and Wales made everything laws, which prohibit normal life and restrict freedoms is not a situation that can stand indefrinitely.
Who are you to tell me what I think? Read my reply to surge. Anything you are forced to do or not do by law connected to covid is lockdown or partial lockdown. you can dress it up any way you like but it doesn't change the fact that the population is being controlled and subdued. It cannot sustain. I actually don't mind waiter service in pubs, and my boy is making a fortune in extra hours, but if I want to stand at the bat then I should be able to do so. The stupidity of the whole thing is no better illustrated by the assumption that you cannot catch covid sitting down. In a pub as soon as you stand up you have to put a mask on, this to prevent you passing the virus to others, but if someone wearing a mask comes to your table you can talk to them and breath on them and you won't pass the virus to them. Oh really? It is nonsense. Restaurants and pubs are better regulated establishments than Tesco or Primark or Wembley ever will be.
Are you sure they've said that? The vaccines just need a simple tweak for all future variants and mutations?
It doesn't seem like the kind of thing a scientist would say.
Yes they did. They have stated that if a variant learns to avoid the current vaccines its a simple thing to adjust them and there would be no need for a further 18 month plus trial and development. It's what they do with the flu vaccine every year.
Warning: I do use the word 'simple' as a relative description of the process compared to making the originalsimple for brilliant medical scientists that is.
"The stupidity of the whole thing is no better illustrated by the assumption that you cannot catch covid sitting down. In a pub as soon as you stand up you have to put a mask on, this to prevent you passing the virus to others, but if someone wearing a mask comes to your table you can talk to them and breath on them and you won't pass the virus to them."
Do you often breath on people?
The reason we have to wear our masks when we stand up is to stop us passing on the virus to other people, on the basis that we may be carrying the virus and be asymptomatic. Why is this still difficult to understand?
The reason that we wear masks is not to protect ourselves, but to protect others. 18 months on, people would have to be thick to not get it by now.
The reason we are encouraged not to stand at the bar is because, by standing at the bar, we increase the number of contacts we make unnecessarily. Why is this still difficult to understand?
When we are sat at a table, as I was last night, with people outside of our bubble - we should maintain social distancing. Why is this still difficult to understand?
A member of the waiting staff will wear a mask because that person is not just serving you, but potentially 50-100 people every night. Why is this difficult to understand?
That waiter/waitress is wearing a mask to protect you. Why is that difficult to understand?
When the waiter comes to your table, he/she is not spending 30 minutes chatting to you at close distance. Why is that difficult to understand?
When the waiter comes to your table, it is a fleeting encounter and is low risk. Why is that difficult to understand?
If you stand at a bar, you are likely to be standing with people outside of your bubble, and the number of people you are in contact with will increase unnecessarily. Is this difficult for you to understand? Is it?
If someone comes to your table, do you really think you can breath on them? Is this something you used to do before the pandemic?
What is it about the current restrictions that is preventing you from carrying out your daily tasks?
One word of caution, my cousin is currently in Intensive Care having had both doses of the vaccine. She is 40, she is a keen runner, she is not overweight, she has no known "underlying" health conditions. She contracted the virus in a pub on her 40th birthday. How do we know this? 4 of her friends (in a group of 9) also tested positive. Another word of caution, her 12 year old daughter is also very seriously ill having picked up the virus from her mother. Her husband, meanwhile, has tested positive but has shown absolutely no symptoms at all.
I agree some pubs are better regulated than shops. I now do all my shopping online to avoid the possibility. I have been out to a few restaurants and bars though because it is clearly not as risky and, if such a place gets a bit overcrowded, I just up and leave.
But, not all pubs are so well regulated.
Out of interest, did they say how simple it would be to create 120 million doses and put them in the arms of 60 million British people before the new variant took hold? Did they also expand and say how easy it would be to quickly vaccinate the entire population of the world to prevent the new variant becoming widespread and, possibly, mutating further still?Yes they did. They have stated that if a variant learns to avoid the current vaccines its a simple thing to adjust them and there would be no need for a further 18 month plus trial and development. It's what they do with the flu vaccine every year.
Warning: I do use the word 'simple' as a relative description of the process compared to making the original
Yes they did. They have stated that if a variant learns to avoid the current vaccines its a simple thing to adjust them and there would be no need for a further 18 month plus trial and development. It's what they do with the flu vaccine every year.
Warning: I do use the word 'simple' as a relative description of the process compared to making the original
It isn't what they do with the flu vaccine every year by the way. The flu vaccine is based on the most prevalent strain of flu in the Southern Hemisphere during their winter. More often than not, that strain is one for which a long established vaccine exists.
Thank-you, it's not often people change their mind on the internet, but glad you have taken the fact of the way the flu vaccine works, that it differs to your assertion, and admitted you are wrong. Very noble of you.
Thank-you, it's not often people change their mind on the internet, but glad you have taken the fact of the way the flu vaccine works, that it differs to your assertion, and admitted you are wrong. Very noble of you.
Thank-you. It isn't often people admit they got it wrong on the internet. The fact that, even if a new vaccine could be quickly tweaked, it would take a monumental effort to vaccinate the entire population of the country and, as a result, restrictions would have to be introduced in the meantime is a sad one. Obviously, we would both like it to be different, but it is what it is.
Well, let's face it, you spent an awful lot of time talking about not being allowed to go to pubs from March 2020 and it seems you're still not happy. I broadly agree with you actually however, because, having been told throughout 2020 that vaccines we're the thing that would make all the difference in the fight against Covid, it now appears that was not quite true - we were continually told during the various lockdowns that things would be back to "normal" in spring 2021 and it's going to be increasingly hard to hold a line that is essentially "ah yes, but" when the public remember the line they were being fed throughout most of 2020 and early 2021.
We differ in our interpretation of the word "lockdown" - I certainly don't see what we have now as another lockdown, more as living with certain restrictions, the life I was living under what I define as lockdown is quite a bit different to the one I am now.
In fairness, I think only politicians claimed that the vaccine was the way out. It clearly isn't. The scientists certainly didn't claim that it was.
The key stat for me, these days, is the infection rate in the local area. Currently, around 1 in 400 people in my area have the virus (extrapolated from the ONS). As a result, I think things are quite low risk in general. That rate will increase as restrictions are eased, and I think that is when we will hit the crunch of how effective the vaccines really are and, are they effective enough not to fill the hospitals with sick people and the ground with corpses.
Not being able to go to a pub 6 months ago compared to, being able to go to the pub but sometimes wearing a mask is a huge step forward. I know some people of the gammon variety get upset at having to wear a mask in Wetherspoon's, but that is something to laugh at and celebrate.
I tend to use the pub argument because, yes I do love the pub and I personally like to stand at the bar although others don't, but also because it is always the first thing that the pro lockdown lobby point at as a cause and the last thing on any politicians list to allow back to normal. It is similar to the perception that it is football supporters who always cause trouble so ban them but rugby supporters are just showing high spirits. Like the pub, they are the political/medical whipping boy.
When I say lockdown, it is as an all encompassing term to refer to anything that we are being told, ordered or forced to do that we may not otherwise normally do. I appreciate its a broad scope but it is easier than trying to define the different levels of 'can and can't' which seem to vary at the whim of politicians and their control freak, worse case scenario always, scientific advisors.
So we aren't really so far apart. As I say, I've quite got used to waiter service and have had it in other countries I've lived in as a norm, its just not the way a British pub would operate in 'normal' times.
My biggest concern is the deliberate failure by government to repeal all the things they have passed into law in the last 18 months, choosing to quietly keep them on the statute books "just in case". That is scary. I believe the laws passed in Westminster have an automatic end date unless revoted on but I'm not so sure about those in Wales. A lot of things were made laws in wales, I can still here Drakeford saying "Here in Wales we have passed this into law to make it clear etc etc" and as a lot of it was done by executive order, (correct term?) or so I'm led to believe I worry about their actual status.
Another point Bob, is that the medics cry out about how many people are testing positive but they are testing far far more people now than they were before and the numbers aren't as high. Even the people who do the analysis of the numbers accept that if you test more people it's inevitable that you will capture more positive results, but the vast number today are mild infection that require no hospitalisation, and those that do tend not to require invasive oxygen or intensive care. A vastly different scenario to last June or December
Ive clearly been on the cautious side in debates on here about lockdowns and Covid, but I agree that we appear to be in a different situation now than we were late last year and earlier this year. Im no expert, but every October I have a flu jab which were told offers around 60 per cent protection. Flu can kill 20,000 a year in the UK I understand and, obviously, Im classed as being in the at risk group, but I dont give flu another thought once Ive had my jab.
Compare that to Covid where were told there is ninety per cent plus protection from hospitalisation and/or death after two jabs. At sixty five and overweight, I have risk factors for the disease, but Im happy to take the risk knowing that I could be one of those who is unlucky. As for protecting others, I think Ill continue to wear a mask in places like supermarkets even if its decided they are no longer needed.
If what Ive put in the last two paragraphs is wrong and Im missing something important, then Id say the authorities are not explaining why I and others are wrong clearly enough. I accept that Covid has not gone away because of the vaccine and there are still risks involved, but the arguments for maintaining restrictions seem more vague now and those in Government in London or Cardiff are bound to face a tougher task in convincing a public that have observed the restrictions imposed conscientiously in the past that they have to do so again.
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As someone who has been broadly supportive of Mark Drakeford and Welsh Labour in their handling of things, Ive not heard a coherent argument yet as to why Wales has to have lower attendances at sporting events than in England where Covid rates have generally tended to be higher in recent months.
Back in spring 2020 there were a lot of people saying that getting rid of restrictions will be harder than going into them - I never really understood what they meant by that, but I have a better idea now having experienced what has happened since people starting getting their second jab.
Some governments will make laws, some will give out clear messages to a population ready to listen and some will give out wishy-washy messages to a population where some don't want to be told what to do...
- Vaccine's have achieved what they were asked to do with most are saying they've broken link between picking up the virus and dying, at least as much as a vaccine which doesn't offer 100% protection can.
- We've heard a lot of talk about flu death numbers but that doesn't have to be the target and could be reduced by us keeping some of the tactics used during past year: mask wearing indoors, reducing contacts when sick, good ventilation and hygiene standards. Smart health tactics reduce spread of viruses.
- Let's wait and see which government minister's lead from the front to say they'll still be wearing a mask indoors and avoiding cramped enclosed spaces even after "freedom day(s)". Covid isn't over in the UK and certainly isn't over in rest of the world despite us appearing to have passed worst of it in the UK.
- If the UK government wanted a one nation approach there should definitely be consideration given to Scotland not wanting to open up fully until July 19th.
- If we revert back to having to wait 4 days until getting SSP then people will still go out and spread viruses around because they can't afford to wait that long. Which minister is going to be first to call for covid-SSP rules to stay to reduce risk of what's expected to be bad flu season?
As ever, the message most needs to be taken on board by those least likely to be giving it attention and some of those listening will overreact going too far the other way.
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