Ita a block grant. It's up to Welsh Labour how they spend it. A few less zebra crossings up the valleys and a bit more on healthcare would do wonders.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bloop
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Ita a block grant. It's up to Welsh Labour how they spend it. A few less zebra crossings up the valleys and a bit more on healthcare would do wonders.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bloop
Indeed indeed and at least we forget the cuts by a certain person back in 2013Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisp_1927
Welsh NHS: Health minister defends tough budgets
Welsh NHS: Health minister defends tough budgets
The NHS in Wales is still receiving investment despite cut backs, Health Minister Mark Drakeford insists.
He spoke out after it was revealed that top civil servants issued a stark warning about the impact of cash shortages facing the health service.
They say ministers' decision to impose a tough budget settlement on the Welsh NHS in recent years is making the delivery of current services "exceptionally difficult".
Mr Drakeford told BBC Wales political reporter Daniel Davies that a review taking place this summer would determine whether the health service needed more money.
Published30 July 2013SectionBBC News
What are you talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Feedback
You aren't going to win anyone over by being sanctimonious Mr J.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
It's not sanctimonious, far from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew
I think a cross-party approach to the NHS is the way forward, but acknowledged it would never happen.
Soon after comes a response that is basically a polemic of party politics, quoting the guardian and Zarah Sultana.
I think highlighting that is fair enough tbh, because it perfectly demonstrated my point.
I used to work in the commercial sector of a pharmaceutical company and much of my time was spent with DoH/ NHS and procurement contracts. Without exception the procurement processes were always robust and in emergency situations, where there was no time to go out to tender, the unsuccessful companies always had the option of challenging the decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
In my experience the weakness in the system was the failure to manage the market, particularly with specialist pharmaceuticals. It was common practice to go with the cheapest and before you know it all the business in the UK regions ended up with one company, the competition withdrew as they had minimal/no business...,so you can guess what happened next.
Isn't it important though to make a distinction between PPE and specialist pharmaceuticals? We've had discussions about our backgrounds so we're speaking the same supply chain language but PPE is a lot easier to manufacture than sterile catheters, for example. You're absolutely right in what you're saying, however it doesn't mean that the wholly inappropriate contracts handed out regarding PPE (or rather the way they were granted) is something a government shouldn't be held accountable for, as Jon's post illustrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by lisvaneblue
For what its worth I've been on both sides of the NHS and these days have first hand experience of what the management problems are like as an end user and there's no doubt that - to state the bleeding obvious - it's a mess. I'm not sure any discussion can take place that's going to end in truly practical solutions without the spectre of financial argument, whether cross-party or not. People are going to have re-prioritse their financial management and we have to address the true costs of attempting to offer an free service in the 21st century. To put it simply, people will happily pay £1K+/yr on coffee in Pret than on their healthcare. It can't go on like this.
The Welsh NHS is funded by the block grant. The priorities of Wales are set by the Welsh Government. If the Welsh wanted change they'd remove Welsh Labour. They haven't so they don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew
No. You've shifted the goalposts. What has this got to do with Welsh Labour? You're allowing your politics to spill over. It's about a pot of money. Is that pot large enough? Where do we prioritise? You talked about zebra crossings as if these aren't important. They are. How can you possibly know how and where any Senedd government should spend the money unless you're actively involved?Quote:
Originally Posted by Feedback
It demonstrates the stupidity of your point - which 'is fair enough tbh'.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
My response was not party political - Labour gave privatisation a kick start under Blair - it was pointing out that the NHS is bound up in political choices and constraints. Pious appeals to keep politics out of the various debates about the NHS is either naive or dishonest.
You've missed the point. The Welsh government could spend more money if it wanted to. Its about what they see as priorities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew
I think we've just cross-threaded and I'm too tired to try and unravel it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Feedback
Exactly!!!!...and the priorities have been a £40m loan to Cardiff airport, following on from writing off £40m of airport debts. £150m on surveys etc for the m4 relief road, which, despite their own experts saying should be built, has been scrapped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feedback
Add to that £330m on the heads of the valleys dual carriageway( despite all other road building being stopped), millions on nationalising Wales railways, millions on exploring the tidal lagoon concept at Swansea....I could go on.
Wales receives about £1.20 for every £1 England receives. I question whether our money is being spent wisely when our health service continues to fall short.
There's nothing to unravel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew
The Welsh people choose their government, the governments sets the agenda, the Welsh people can choose to remove that government.
What is also missed is the Welsh government now has tax raising powers, so its within their power to make changes. Its not all about Westminster.
What is also missing in this thread is geography and topography. Its going to cost a lot more to provide an ambulance service to Powys than it is to London, on a per capita basis. Compare Wales with Cumbria or Northumberland and the results may be similar.
most of the costs you've mentioned are infrastructure spending, which we definitely don't spend more on than England. whereas wales spends more per capita on general day to day spending like health and welfare because its needs are higher , it isn't within the remit of the welsh government to take infrastructure spending and spend it on healthcare instead - nor would it be a particularly good ideaQuote:
Originally Posted by lisvaneblue
OK, so to summarise so far. It's a good idea to have cross-party management i.e. work together, governments are corrupt, budgets are mismanaged, we don't prioritise our health and, my own personal favourite I'll shoehorn in... the planet's f*cked.
Thank buddha for the footie tomorrow.
Must you be so ****ing rude? I'm saying party politics should be kept out of healthcare. That's a reasonable statement. You respond with a tirade and quote a far-left MP and some irrelevant guardian article about the English health secretary when we are talking about Wales.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
You didn't need to do that. Could have pointed out where everyone can work together and focus on common goals. Instead it's always more sectarian stuff. It's why nothing will ever change
There is nothing sectarian in my posts. I countered your opinions about people 'politicising' the NHS by pointing out that most of the decisions - legislation, resource allocation, public-private roles, access etc - are political (whether or not party political) and you dismiss that as a tirade, without engaging with the points at all. That is so ****ing rude!Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
The tweet from Zarah Sultana MP and the Guardian article are pointing out the way the Health Secretary has used his political position to gain personal financial benefits from the NHS and extend privatisation. You need a re-think on where the politicisation is coming from.
The other strand to this thread has been all about the political choices about the health service available to the Welsh Government. Absolutely right and it cuts right across your pitch. There are choices to be made about priorities and resources (even if constrained by UK law and UK government budgets) and the people should be able to decide on those issues through their elected representatives. But it is not just about manifestos and elections or party political 'point scoring' (aka holding the other lot to account) the thing is political with a small 'p'.
why the straight face?Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
you accuse Westminster of all sorts, but ignore the Senedd. In your world when its good in wales its down to Welsh Labour, when its bad its down to Westminster. you also go on about profiting from healthcare, and completely ignore that the largest non state healthcare providers in the UK are non profit (BUPA and Nuffield Health). You seem to think that only the state can provide healthcare without turning a profit. most will agree that BUPA and Nuffield Health are light years ahead of the NHS in terms of quality of care, service and outcomes any surplus reinvested in patient care.
What I don't understand is if someone can see a specialist today, why can't the NHS pay for it today? Why do they have to wait 6 months? If its on BUPA or Nuffield then the specialist will see you straight away. All we need to do is follow the German and French model that allows private sector delivery but funded by the public purse. Waiting times are unheard of over there. However, the politicking you claim to avoid wouldn't allow you to admit there are alternatives to what we have at present that does not involve total state delivery.
meh!
I can't remember ever commenting on Welsh Labour in the way you describe. I usually avoid the arguments about the Senedd because I don't live in Wales. I plead guilty to commenting on the cock-ups and corruption of the UK government. But there you go. meh!Quote:
Originally Posted by Feedback
I agree with your general point about the NHS accessing services immediately if they are available - but I don't know (do you?) what the NHS has to pay for those services. A registered charity and an insurance-funded 'not for profit' company maybe should have a role in health care provision to users of the NHS - they are not profit-led private sector organisations of the sort that now occupy large parts of the NHS.
I don't know enough about the French and German health care models to comment. I know you have been advocating the German approach on here for years. I understand that there are short waiting times for testing and treatments/surgery, but isn't it funded by additional health insurance payments on top of general tax contributions? Does that mean that health outcomes are partly dependent on ability to pay?
This was an interesting (and recent) reference:
https://www.william-russell.com/blog...hcare-systems/
Flipping heckQuote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
Nothing to see here
Move along
And what has this to do with the incompetence of how tax payers money has been spent in Wales ???Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
It shows that in England the health Secretary, newly elected , is not only presiding over a shit storm .......he's making money from itQuote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
Incompetent and bent
In my experience its the abilities of health trust managers who waste the huge amounts of resources and funding provided , no one ever talks about how efQuote:
Originally Posted by lisvaneblue
efficient those funds are allocated and performance managed , its so easy to default to the evil government funding somewhere there is a balance between funding and efficiency or is it easier to default to not manage the funding and moan about it going wrong 😳
And our own deffencies , if you think the funding in Wales is well managed you may want to examine it in more detail and there a lot of over paid trust management and waste going on , I don't think they are corrupt but one may consider them very inefficient with tax payers money . I have few friends in health and they don't have a good word to say about the over 80k pa plus managers, this post is not about Tories and you and John bitter hate, it's about our own A&E funded services, it's two different arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
In Germany you are given two options: pay into the state system or pay privately. Its either or, not a top up.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
One is cheaper than the other when you're younger, but becomes more expensive as you get older. The split is about 77/23 the last time I checked, albeit a few years ago, on favour of public.
There is no stigma attached to using either, and all doctors and medical facilities are privately delivered, but funded by one of the above two methods.
It's an excellent system and provides more timely quality care (for all) than what we are used to in the UK.
Thats not knocking the NHS, I dont see why my BUPA cover can pay for a specialist tomorrow, but the NHS won't pay for the same specialist for 12 months or whatever
Undoubtedly A&E will always benefit from more funding but the real help that it needs are:Quote:
Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy
For GP’ surgeries to do more locally
It should only be used for those most in need.
My old dears GP surgery has been fantasticQuote:
Originally Posted by BLUEAWAY
In fact I would say the NHS have been fantastic all round
Social care however is completely fecked
I don't know about the original poster but most people who attack the Welsh NHS on here and in the media etc are fecking tory votersQuote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
So I always like it when things such as that little turd saeed making money on the back of the NHS in England are pointed out .....look what you could have won ! 🏆
Jeremy hunt , the stupid can't, Hancock and now saaed, all English health secretaries , all at it !
During that awful austerity program Wales was the only UK country not to sustain funding In fact spending fell and Drakeford was the Health Minister.
For decades NHS spending has never been a real priority for the Labour Party and WAG always seem to take from the NHS budget to save money.
Free prescriptions has never been proven to be a cost effective saving measure , however its a good voting tool .
Instead of wasting millions like the £100m of taxpayer money that has gone into CF failiing Airport and the £100m on the enquiry into the M4 relief road, why not fix NHS Wales .
I don't think WAG has the abilities to manage Health ,Education or Transport, they should never have been devolved.
There may well be corruption in Westminster, but my god there's boundless incompetencies in Welsh run Wales, which is equally corrupt in its nature to the people of Wales who suffer because of these faults and yes some die because of its incompetency.
Do you think health , education and transport are being managed well in England ?Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
Because I have friends in England who would love to pay what we pay for social care here in Wales
Social care in Wales is in the shit but it's funded as well as it can be by the Welsh government to ensure nobody pays above 100 quid per week for care .
What do you think my friends experiences are of care in England ?
What are the structural issues in your opinion?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
My friend who is 35 and lives in Birmingham is currently crippled by Crohns can't get treatment so yeah there it's ****ed.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
It's designed to be ****ed. Time is running out.
I will make a point that people (of all sides) might not like. Wales is a county of England when it comes to government spending. To pretend that they have real actionable choices is insane or deliberately misleading. There is a crystal clear aim to underfund healthcare in the UK, I don't even know what kind of evidence the people who deny that want to see anymore? It is a snowball going down a hill and we are becoming exponentially more ****ed as each day goes by.
The private care companies are waitingQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
We are the next United States
Fecked
:thumbup: the only people being “sectarian” are the people denying this because they’re more interested in party politics than actual issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Well addressing the bold, because that is all they have to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feedback
Addressing the rest, what is the per capita spend on healthcare in Germany vs the UK. I don't know it, but any accountant worth their while wouldn't exclude a key figure like that from their post unless there was good reason to do so.
I’m certainly not a Tory voter, but that stat I quoted earlier is shocking and a big indictment on Welsh Labour. Does the UK want to keep an NHS in something like the format it had when it was originated? Whether it’s under Labour in Wales, the Tories in England or the SNP in Scotland, the NHS is struggling and has been for years. I think it’s time for bold thinking and would welcome the appointment of a politically neutral group with a remit to rule nothing out in coming up with proposals as to how we can continue with the NHS in its original entity. That would almost certainly cost a great deal and so, inevitably, we’d end up paying for it in some way - the proposals could then be voted on and the country could decide whether it really values the NHS as much as it always says it does when asked in opinion polls.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
The population is increasingQuote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
People are living longer
Unless as wages increase , tax increases and spending on the NHS increases then the black hole , which will always be big will get bigger and bigger
The targets and performance indicators are a big part of the problem
Less money since the financial crash , an increasing population , covid , higher expectations and a public that votes for a party that wants to keep taxes low and spending low
Unless we can stop people breeding and shoot everyone over 70 then this is the future
There have been lots of reforms of the NHS . The time it has been given praise in recent years was the early period of the Blair government when lots of money was put in . He Naffed all that up very quickly though .
However apart from structural reform investment is what is needed . If we want more ambulances , we need more paramedics . Which cost money .
If taxation isn't raised ......and people don't want that as they have voted Conservative......who control the money ........then either we get what we get or the private sector take over
I don't think it's much more complicated than that
Didn't the Westminster Government just impose higher taxation to fund the demands of NHS/Social careQuote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
They faced criticism from opposition parties and pointed out that the Tories of now the party of taxation.
I found this quote after last budget announcement:
""Britain’s tax burden will rise to highest in 70 years
Every worker to pay 1.25% health and social care levy""
Nothing stopping (Mr Drakeford ) raising tax rates for Welsh workers due to the allowable adjustments to income tax introduced in April 2019.
I don't think the NHS in its current state is not fundable and its a great political toy for politicians to play around with knowing the emotional attachment the public has with it .