Revised HS2 Is the government right or wrong?

After just 24 hours, the government has dropped its commitment to reopen the Leamside Line. It was included yesterday in the initial Network North announcements, now it’s gone.

Roads minister Richard Holden stated Govt is now just ‘committed to looking into it’.

Henri Murison, CE of Northern Powerhouse Partnership says this announcement makes the entirety of Network North a ‘fairytale’.

It’s unravelling already, bloody clowns!

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Yes Eric. I think there is a better use of the money. That's it. It's not hard to comprehend. Some people would advocate spending everything on one big project, others on several smaller ones.

It goes without saying that the problems in terms of finding and delivering any proposed new ones will still exist of course.

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Pull the curtain back and there is nothing in there.

I'll try once again...

Better use of money based on what? The brain is essentially a big calculator, what variables is your brain using to decide that it is better use of money?

As far as I'm aware the government haven't published any analysis to show the financial impact so we have nothing concrete to compare hs2 with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ninian opinian

After just 24 hours, the government has dropped its commitment to reopen the Leamside Line. It was included yesterday in the initial Network North announcements, now it’s gone.

Roads minister Richard Holden stated Govt is now just ‘committed to looking into it’.

Henri Murison, CE of Northern Powerhouse Partnership says this announcement makes the entirety of Network North a ‘fairytale’.

It’s unravelling already, bloody clowns!

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Next you will be telling me there isn't going to be 40 new hospitals, I just refuse to believe they have lied.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Next you will be telling me there isn't going to be 40 new hospitals, I just refuse to believe they have lied.

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Wait there’s more :hehe:

Yesterday the government pledged to deliver: "A259 from Bognor Regis to Southampton"

Today Mark Harper tweeted graphics showing they actually meant Littlehampton...45 miles away.

And

“Govt has pledged to extend the Metrolink network in Manchester towards the Airport - despite the fact it was built 9 years ago”

And

They also want to build a tram line to Clifton South in Nottingham that was done 8 years ago

CLOWNS!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Pull the curtain back and there is nothing in there.

I'll try once again...

Better use of money based on what? The brain is essentially a big calculator, what variables is your brain using to decide that it is better use of money?

As far as I'm aware the government haven't published any analysis to show the financial impact so we have nothing concrete to compare hs2 with.

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Do you realise how unbelievably patronising you sound?

If the analysis hasn't been made (and I have no reason to believe you on that) then how are you in a position to judge either?

We all have opinions on govt expenditure and the best use of it. I would suggest that using all the funding on getting between two cities quicker is not the best use of that, and greater investment in connecting people to and within their own and neighbouring cities would produce better economic and social incomes.

The approach you suggest is what has led to more investment in the southeast in recent decades as it produces better economic outcomes..on paper at least.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ninian opinian

Wait there’s more :hehe:

Yesterday the government pledged to deliver: "A259 from Bognor Regis to Southampton"

Today Mark Harper tweeted graphics showing they actually meant Littlehampton...45 miles away.

And

“Govt has pledged to extend the Metrolink network in Manchester towards the Airport - despite the fact it was built 9 years ago”

And

They also want to build a tram line to Clifton South in Nottingham that was done 8 years ago

CLOWNS!

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Someone follows Louise Haigh on twitter..

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Someone follows Louise Haigh on twitter..

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Is that the best you’ve got :hehe:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ninian opinian

Wait there’s more :hehe:

Yesterday the government pledged to deliver: "A259 from Bognor Regis to Southampton"

Today Mark Harper tweeted graphics showing they actually meant Littlehampton...45 miles away.

And

“Govt has pledged to extend the Metrolink network in Manchester towards the Airport - despite the fact it was built 9 years ago”

And

They also want to build a tram line to Clifton South in Nottingham that was done 8 years ago

CLOWNS!

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'HS2 will not go to Euston without private funds'

After announcing it would yesterday. This is surely record timing for plans unravelling.

At least Rishi can still rely on 'some people here present' to blindly believe his next round of lies.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Do you realise how unbelievably patronising you sound?

If the analysis hasn't been made (and I have no reason to believe you on that) then how are you in a position to judge either?

We all have opinions on govt expenditure and the best use of it. I would suggest that using all the funding on getting between two cities quicker is not the best use of that, and greater investment in connecting people to and within their own and neighbouring cities would produce better economic and social incomes.

The approach you suggest is what has led to more investment in the southeast in recent decades as it produces better economic outcomes..on paper at least.

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Wrong. The South East isn't connected, it's connected to London. Source - I live here

It's actually one of the main criticism of living in the home counties, you can get into London in 20/30 mins on fast trains but its so much difficult to travel horizontally.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Wrong. The South East isn't connected, it's connected to London. Source - I live here

It's actually one of the main criticism of living in the home counties, you can get into London in 20/30 mins on fast trains but its so much difficult to travel horizontally.

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I didn't say the southeast was connected, I said a purely economic analysis of the projects is what has led to greater investment in the southeast in recent years. Not just in terms of transport infrastructure, but that does trump expenditure elsewhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I didn't say the southeast was connected, I said a purely economic analysis of the projects is what has led to greater investment in the southeast in recent years. Not just in terms of transport infrastructure, but that does trump expenditure elsewhere.

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Fair enough, but what do you think levelling up means? For me it means taxpayer investment in infrastructure, leading to private sector investment and better paying jobs. You have to start at the end, what is need for investment to occur, not 'which potholes are annoying Mary the most?'

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Fair enough, but what do you think levelling up means? For me it means taxpayer investment in infrastructure, leading to private sector investment and better paying jobs. You have to start at the end, what is need for investment to occur, not 'which potholes are annoying Mary the most?'

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For me it absolutely is not best demonstrated by getting people between two cities quicker, esp when you can already get between Manchester and London in a little over two hours and can work on the train if needs be, and there will already be a first phase to come which will deliver some benefits.

Potholes is an extreme example but actually it is the local bus services, train services and road links that really do connect people with their cities and towns that matter more. It helps people socialise and get to jobs that are otherwise not open to them.

I think that's a much better use of money and I wish HS2 had been scrapped or scaled back years ago tbh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Do you realise how unbelievably patronising you sound?

If the analysis hasn't been made (and I have no reason to believe you on that) then how are you in a position to judge either?

We all have opinions on govt expenditure and the best use of it. I would suggest that using all the funding on getting between two cities quicker is not the best use of that, and greater investment in connecting people to and within their own and neighbouring cities would produce better economic and social incomes.

The approach you suggest is what has led to more investment in the southeast in recent decades as it produces better economic outcomes..on paper at least.

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He's got it bang on

You are defending the indefensible

So you need a good verbal slap

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Originally Posted by Swiss Peter

Apparently the £36bn will be allocated across the nation. Let's hope Sunak's favourite area of deprivation gets levelled up as a result. Tunbridge Wells could do with a shiny new station and by-pass😂

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Inner City Sevenoaks

Plagued by crime and deprivation

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rjk

I can't see this playing out well for the government, they made a big fuss about the "northern powerhouse". This is an open goal for Labour surely?

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Nah Sir Bier has said he won't oppose it there goes Blairs Labour initiated project of misery.

The stupid expensive waste of money should never have been started in the first place.

Much more benefit can be achieved for far less by focusing on regional travel projects and fully electrifying all existing lines.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Nah Sir Bier has said he won't oppose it there goes Blairs Labour initiated project of misery.

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Sir Kier Muppet!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

For me it absolutely is not best demonstrated by getting people between two cities quicker, esp when you can already get between Manchester and London in a little over two hours and can work on the train if needs be, and there will already be a first phase to come which will deliver some benefits.

Potholes is an extreme example but actually it is the local bus services, train services and road links that really do connect people with their cities and towns that matter more. It helps people socialise and get to jobs that are otherwise not open to them.

I think that's a much better use of money and I wish HS2 had been scrapped or scaled back years ago tbh.

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If potholes is an extreme example, why is 25% of the overall diverted money from the Birmingham to Manchester link being allocated across the country allegedly to fix them. I say allegedly as all this is about budgets from the 2029 financial year onwards. Apart from conference gesture politics where Sunak's Network North list is unravelling by the hour what level of confidence do you have that the guy that presented this unravelling wish list would have any say over delivering it?

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

If potholes is an extreme example, why is 25% of the overall diverted money from the Birmingham to Manchester link being allocated across the country allegedly to fix them. I say allegedly as all this is about budgets from the 2029 financial year onwards. Apart from conference gesture politics where Sunak's Network North list is unravelling by the hour what level of confidence do you have that the guy that presented this unravelling wish list would have any say over delivering it?

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Potholes are an extreme example from the list of projects; ie, they are the smallest intervention. But they still impact millions of people who probably get pissed off that their street isn't fixed when we are spending billions on getting people to London half an hour quicker.

The reality is that far more projects can bee funded now and yeah I think that's a good thing. Don't you?

There's no guarantee any of it will be built. That's how politics work. Labour could cancel them all or redirect funding. Some may end up not happening for one reason or another. Drakeford cancelled the M4 relief road that Carwyn Jones wanted for example..that's what happens

It doesn't mean you don't identify and fund anything to move them forward though or else absolutely nothing ever would be built because nothing would get off the drawing board.

Do you not see the value in any of the many projects that they have said will now be funded with the money saved?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Potholes are an extreme example from the list of projects; ie, they are the smallest intervention. But they still impact millions of people who probably get pissed off that their street isn't fixed when we are spending billions on getting people to London half an hour quicker.

The reality is that far more projects can bee funded now and yeah I think that's a good thing. Don't you?

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Why do you think diverting 25% of the supposed budget to potholes and mostly away from the branded Network North is an extreme example?

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...money-27843415

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Why do you think diverting 25% of the supposed budget to potholes and mostly away from the branded Network North is an extreme example?

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...money-27843415

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I've said. From the range of projects that will receive funding, from electrification to new roads to trams etc, potholes is an extreme example - the smallest of all those schemes. They still matter to a lot of people though, even if they don't to you.

Again, do you not support any of the projects that will now receive funding previously tied to HS2 then?

Or do you think we can have it all?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I've said. From the range of projects that will receive funding, from electrification to new roads to trams etc, potholes is an extreme example - the smallest of all those schemes. They still matter to a lot of people though, even if they don't to you.

Again, do you not support any of the projects that will now receive funding previously tied to HS2 then?

Or do you think we can have it all?

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How do you conclude a quarter of this magic fund is extreme? You seem to major on other people's naivety when it comes to politics. Yet you blindly accept Sunak's "reallocation" of a budget starting in 2029 that he will never be in power to spend that suggests a sprinkling of "new" projects from Plymouth to Sunderland via Dover via most marginal constituencies in between, none of which will get started before next year's election like it came down on tablets of stone from Mount Sinai.

To answer your question, who doesn't like an infrastructure proposal? I guess except those who prefer infrastructure implementations!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

How do you conclude a quarter of this magic fund is extreme? You seem to major on other people's naivety when it comes to politics. Yet you blindly accept Sunak's "reallocation" of a budget starting in 2029 that he will never be in power to spend that suggests a sprinkling of "new" projects from Plymouth to Sunderland via Dover via most marginal constituencies in between, none of which will get started before next year's election like it came down on tablets of stone from Mount Sinai.

To answer your question, who doesn't like an infrastructure proposal? I guess except those who prefer infrastructure implementations!

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I'll say for a third time - potholes are extreme examples of the improvements because they are of a tiny scale compared to rail electrification, trams, road dualling etc. That's why I said that.

I don't blindly accept anything. I do accept reality though. And moaning on here purely because of who made the announcement is futile. And yeah I do also support focusing on a greater number of smaller projects rather than one large one.

Good to see you seem to support the projects that now will receive funding. It goes without saying that in an ideal world everything gets funded, but we don't live in that world.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I'll say for a third time - potholes are extreme examples of the improvements because they are of a tiny scale compared to rail electrification, trams, road dualling etc. That's why I said that.

I don't blindly accept anything. I do accept reality though. And moaning on here purely because of who made the announcement is futile. And yeah I do also support focusing on a greater number of smaller projects rather than one large one.

Good to see you seem to support the projects that now will receive funding. It goes without saying that in an ideal world everything gets funded, but we don't live in that world.

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I tell you what's futile

You , giving it the nuanced nonsense when yet again today you have spent your time on here defending sunak and his party and followers ....that's you .....going back on what they said they would do

It's their fault and it's your fault because you prop them up

Day in day out your suck up to them , it's cringeworthy nonsense wrapped up in clever dick talk

Maybe one day you will come on here and say christ lads question time was shocking the tory mp was battered and looked totally isolated , the conference was crap , ss braverman is going down a nasty right wing path .....etc etc

A bit of honesty really and acceptance instead of this feathered ego political debating cobblers , you are only fooling yourself

But you havnt got the balls

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I'll say for a third time - potholes are extreme examples of the improvements because they are of a tiny scale compared to rail electrification, trams, road dualling etc. That's why I said that.

I don't blindly accept anything. I do accept reality though. And moaning on here purely because of who made the announcement is futile. And yeah I do also support focusing on a greater number of smaller projects rather than one large one.

Good to see you seem to support the projects that now will receive funding. It goes without saying that in an ideal world everything gets funded, but we don't live in that world.

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Put a sock in it you daft sod

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I tell you what's futile

You , giving it the nuanced nonsense when yet again today you have spent your time on here defending sunak and his party and followers ....that's you .....going back on what they said they would do

It's their fault and it's your fault because you prop them up

Day in day out your suck up to them , it's cringeworthy nonsense wrapped up in clever dick talk

Maybe one day you will come on here and say christ lads question time was shocking the tory mp was battered and looked totally isolated , the conference was crap , ss braverman is going down a nasty right wing path .....etc etc

A bit of honesty really and acceptance instead of this feathered ego political debating cobblers , you are only fooling yourself

But you havnt got the balls

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The problem is Sludge is that your view of reality isnt very accurate. Only today on numerous occasions you have promoted weird, unfounded conspiracy theories about some sinister racist organisation at the heart of the govt that even the PM isn't aware of etc.

So seeing things differently to you is something I am pleased to do.

I know you think every day is an apocalyptic disaster but it really isn't the case.

You should stand on Queen St with a placard and promote some of your ideas some day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

The problem is Sludge is that your view of reality isnt very accurate. Only today on numerous occasions you have promoted weird, unfounded conspiracy theories about some sinister racist organisation at the heart of the govt that even the PM isn't aware of etc.

So seeing things differently to you is something I am pleased to do.

I know you think every day is an apocalyptic disaster but it really isn't the case.

You should stand on Queen St with a placard and promote some of your ideas some day.

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Christ your poor missus

It must be torture listening to you never accepting you are backing the wrong horse and doing everything to carry on despite 20 stewards enquiries all telling you what an arse you are

Your only buddy in this freak show is pipster and he's got about 20 different personalities

It's like asking Norman Bates to be your best man

If the Tories get absolutely stuffed and are on tv crying their hearts out you will dash round to go live on air and cheer them up

Where's your dignity ff sake

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

The problem is Sludge is that your view of reality isnt very accurate. Only today on numerous occasions you have promoted weird, unfounded conspiracy theories about some sinister racist organisation at the heart of the govt that even the PM isn't aware of etc.

So seeing things differently to you is something I am pleased to do.

I know you think every day is an apocalyptic disaster but it really isn't the case.

You should stand on Queen St with a placard and promote some of your ideas some day.

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Christ your poor missus

It must be torture listening to you never accepting you are backing the wrong horse and doing everything to carry on despite 20 stewards enquiries all telling you what an arse you are

Your only buddy in this freak show is pipster and he's got about 20 different personalities

It's like asking Norman Bates to be your best man

If the Tories get absolutely stuffed and are on tv crying their hearts out you will dash round to go live on air and cheer them up

Where's your dignity ff sake

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Christ your poor missus

It must be torture listening to you never accepting you are backing the wrong horse and doing everything to carry on despite 20 stewards enquiries all telling you what an arse you are

Your only buddy in this freak show is pipster and he's got about 20 different personalities

It's like asking Norman Bates to be your best man

If the Tories get absolutely stuffed and are on tv crying their hearts out you will dash round to go live on air and cheer them up

Where's your dignity ff sake

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I just think HS2 is not the best use of transport funding. Never have. It's no more complex than that.

And my poor missus?! Jesus Christ! Yours would ask you what you fancied for tea and you would reel off some speech about how her last dinner utterly crashed the indigestion system, proclaim that the very concept of food was ruined by Thatcher and then quietly say bangers and mash having spent 25 minutes ruling out every other dish for being too Tory.

My missus would probably just ask why I spend so much time arguing with those people on the internet and I would do the right thing and concede she is absolutely correct (and then also have bangers and mash)

What is your favourite food incidentally?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I'll say for a third time - potholes are extreme examples of the improvements because they are of a tiny scale compared to rail electrification, trams, road dualling etc. That's why I said that.

I don't blindly accept anything. I do accept reality though. And moaning on here purely because of who made the announcement is futile. And yeah I do also support focusing on a greater number of smaller projects rather than one large one.

Good to see you seem to support the projects that now will receive funding. It goes without saying that in an ideal world everything gets funded, but we don't live in that world.

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Some of use got your opinion that diverting 23% of the HS2 budget as being tiny scale the first time. We might also think that admitting that after a decade and a half of Conservative rule road maintenance has been underfunded by almost £9 billion tells its own story.

Perhaps you could amplify your point by providing the far less trivial percentages potentially allocated from the 2029 budget onwards for:

Potholes 23%
Rail Electrification (x) %
Trams (x) %
Road Dualling (x)
Etc (x)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Some of use got your opinion that diverting 23% of the HS2 budget as being tiny scale the first time. We might also think that admitting that after a decade and a half of Conservative rule road maintenance has been underfunded by almost £9 billion tells its own story.

Perhaps you could amplify your point by providing the far less trivial percentages potentially allocated from the 2029 budget onwards for:

Potholes 23%
Rail Electrification (x) %
Trams (x) %
Road Dualling (x)
Etc (x)

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Cyril, I don't work for the govt. I don't have that information to hand and this is a football messageboard not a maths test.

I do think that multiple projects (some very large, some small) serving multiple communities is a better use of money than one huge project to get between Manchester and Birmingham about 20-30 minutes quicker.

Money is finite. You've already acknowledged the projects mentioned are welcome so just accept that not every thing can be done and decisions on spending are sometimes needed.

I don't think HS2 was the most pressing need for the country, nor do the govt, nor do millions of voters. Next week we should find out whether the Labour party do or not as they will have to make a call on it too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Cyril, I don't work for the govt. I don't have that information to hand and this is a football messageboard not a maths test.

I do think that multiple projects (some very large, some small) serving multiple communities is a better use of money than one huge project to get between Manchester and Birmingham about 20-30 minutes quicker.

Money is finite. You've already acknowledged the projects mentioned are welcome so just accept that not every thing can be done and decisions on spending are sometimes needed.

I don't think HS2 was the most pressing need for the country, nor do the govt, nor do millions of voters. Next week we should find out whether the Labour party do or not as they will have to make a call on it too.

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My mistake I thought you had the facts at your fingertips when you were stating that potential funding allocated in the 2029 to 2040 period (ie beyond the election after next) on trams massively outweighs that provisionally allocated to fix the appalling state of our roads as they will further be in six years time.

If you want to think this as some grand strategic plan of transport regeneration rather than blowing the dust off a hotch-potch of business cases that have been stopped and binned (and in some cases already delivered!) by the Conservative administration in its various guises over the last 13 years then I can't stop you.

I guess the history of mothballing of the majority of these "projects" in the past gives pause for thought if they will ever be rekindled should a) the money become available to start them in 2029 and b) the decision making be in the hands of the Tory who dusted them off.

As you say, we will see how Labour reacts to this rather obvious exercise in cynicism from the Crosby/Levido school of electioneering.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

My mistake I thought you had the facts at your fingertips when you were stating that potential funding allocated in the 2029 to 2040 period (ie beyond the election after next) on trams massively outweighs that provisionally allocated to fix the appalling state of our roads as they will further be in six years time.

If you want to think this as some grand strategic plan of transport regeneration rather than blowing the dust off a hotch-potch of business cases that have been stopped and binned (and in some cases already delivered!) by the Conservative administration in its various guises over the last 13 years then I can't stop you.

I guess the history of mothballing of the majority of these "projects" in the past gives pause for thought if they will ever be rekindled should a) the money become available to start them in 2029 and b) the decision making be in the hands of the Tory who dusted them off.

As you say, we will see how Labour reacts to this rather obvious exercise in cynicism from the Crosby/Levido school of electioneering.

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I never said the first paragraph you mention.

I also never said they were new projects. But a project without funding is just a piece of paper (I've worked on a few of those before!) So formally redirecting funding is significant.

And I think it's the right move. I have no idea what you think because you havent really said. You probably want to spend the same money twice over by doing both, but we all want that.

You are probably reading too much into this - I just think finding multiple alternative schemes is better than one big one. It's not a complex concept really and I have never supported HS2 - you can see on page 1 of this thread I said that in 2021.

Sunak doing the equivalent of salting the earth by going to sell the land the Northern route was going to take.

What is his mandate for this? He's not been voted in.

Broadcasting to the world what an utterly weak and short sighted nation we are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I just think HS2 is not the best use of transport funding. Never have. It's no more complex than that.

And my poor missus?! Jesus Christ! Yours would ask you what you fancied for tea and you would reel off some speech about how her last dinner utterly crashed the indigestion system, proclaim that the very concept of food was ruined by Thatcher and then quietly say bangers and mash having spent 25 minutes ruling out every other dish for being too Tory.

My missus would probably just ask why I spend so much time arguing with those people on the internet and I would do the right thing and concede she is absolutely correct (and then also have bangers and mash)

What is your favourite food incidentally?

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Sausage , egg , chips and beans

Bread and butter

Cup of tea

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I didn't say the southeast was connected, I said a purely economic analysis of the projects is what has led to greater investment in the southeast in recent years. Not just in terms of transport infrastructure, but that does trump expenditure elsewhere.

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by "recent years" do you mean the last 2000 years?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Sausage , egg , chips and beans

Bread and butter

Cup of tea

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I think the beans and chips may cause problems as I don't like soggy chips but otherwise I'm in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I think the beans and chips may cause problems as I don't like soggy chips but otherwise I'm in.

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I have withdrawn that offer as you are getting all smarty pants americanised again

You can use the sausage as a breakwater to prevent soggy chip infiltration

Rishi Sunak said today that the list of transport projects he outlined in his speech last week to replace HS2 were actually "illustrative" ideas for projects that "could be funded" and not necessarily the projects that would receive funding.

General Election now!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ninian opinian

Rishi Sunak said today that the list of transport projects he outlined in his speech last week to replace HS2 were actually "illustrative" ideas for projects that "could be funded" and not necessarily the projects that would receive funding.

General Election now!!!

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The party of bullshit