Ha ha, I LURV your final paragraph 👍Quote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
Printable View
Ha ha, I LURV your final paragraph 👍Quote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
Some whatterboutry
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ces.thinktanks
Ok, I'll play. Whatabout posting this in the whatabouttery thread you started called Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution where you said David Blunkett proposed the same idea 20 years agoinvolving a third party off shore immigration solution and Eric Cartman said he didn't. You asked him to google it to prove you right.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
He said it didn't presumably because the Blunkett thing involved trying to get a pan-EU position where asylum seekers were processed in safety and those accepted allowed to go to the country of their choice rather than the Patel/Get Johnson out of jail card which involves deporting people from the UK and getting them to seek asylum in Rwanda.
Still what's that about?
https://www.counselmagazine.co.uk/ar...cret-barristerQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
I do enjoy the Secret Barrister, although he does generally approach things from one angle. I totally agree that the media are complicit in things, although this goes for nearly every topic going unfortunatelyQuote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
That dangerous lefty the Archbishop of Canterbury has his say on the Government’s Rwanda proposals.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ays-archbishop
Pinched from Twitter. This sums this Tory’s policy on refugees up perfectly.
The Rwanda plan is NOT offshore processing of claims.
It IS human trafficking.
Our Govt effectively trading in vulnerable people. It is selling asylum seekers to Rwanda for them to work there.
Except if people are seeking genuine asylum from tyranny they need not worry. If they are seeking immigration there are legal ways to do it and we will be paying the Rwandan government not criminal people smugglers. Apart from that, it's identical.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninian opinian
He can part the English Channel and then feed each boat with five loaves and two fish.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Does the fact that there was not one mention of Johnson’s statement to the Commons yesterday on here mean people are no longer interested in Partygate any more or that they have made up their minds on the subject and nothing the PM does or says will make a difference?
Thought Rees-Mogg comparing Johnson’s fine to the DRS system in cricket was equally funny and desperate.
I have made up my mind and there is nothing that Johnson could say that would make any difference. He should have gone when these things were disclosed but has since added lying to Parliament and the first sitting Prime Minister to be charged and convicted of breaking the law to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Now, as then, the only people who have the power to remove him show no sign of doing so, with a good number of them coming up with ever more implausible reasons to justify their inaction. Meanwhile, the rest of us wait around watching the fish rot from the head.
I see the diversion tactics this time apply to the COE and the BBC - the latter, apparently, are softer on Putin than they are on Johnson :hehe:
I don't doubt that people care about this story, but it does have to be said, there is only so far you can go with it, and as political scandals it isnt that juicy. That's not to say it's not important, I just think there's only so much people can say about whether someone had a slice of cake, or a glass of wine after a meeting etc etc etcQuote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
They'll use every trick in the book to fleece our gullible public. In answer to your question there is absolutely nothing any Tory could weasel out of this which would change my mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
See, I just don’t get that, the issue as I see it is the Prime Minister has been found to have broken his own law, it’s not about cakes or glasses of wine.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Agreed and I’d be saying the same about a Labour PM and Government if they had done the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
It's a good line, that's why the apologists keep using it, but the furore is not about cake and wine.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
It's about Johnson making a law, being on television (it seemed like every day) telling people not to break it as lives were at stake, and people following the law to the extent that family members died alone - then lying about having broken that same law multiple times to parliament, refusing to resign for lying in breach of the ministerial code, and becoming the first PM to get sanctioned by the police in office.
It's not that juicy? It's the juiciest scandal involving a Prime Minister in history! It's got death, criminality and moral bankruptcy.
Or it's about cake.
No I get it, and I've said numerous times he should have resigned. I don't think it's juicy, because whilst I agree with you in many respects, the indescretions fundementally are in any time of history very trivial. I just don't have an enormous issue with people who had to work together having a cake or whatever before a meeting. It was wrong, but I'm not that bothered by it and we are just talking about the same damned thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by lardy
What absolutely f****d me over was lockdown and WFH. What worries me is the absense of recognition of how bad that is for mental health and I do hear more recognition of that from him rather than from Starmer.
We are just going round in circles really. The Tories are damaging themselves more by him staying anyway
The prime minister lying to parliament about something he was later fined by the police for doing is absolutely not trivial.
Different topic, but I was furious about people trying to overturn a referendum result - that wasnt trivial for me, but many were okay with it and even supported it. Maybe you did?Quote:
Originally Posted by lardy
The reality is, we can all accept something is wrong, but hes been fined and apologised and I've said he should have resigned, but honestly I just don't know how much more there is to talk about it - personally it doesnt impact on my life and there are bigger issues that aren't being discussed.
You do still talk about Brexit though so not a great example of 'moving on'.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
I agree with your last sentence. The Tories should have lanced this boil weeks ago, and if the Metropolitan police had either acted sooner or waited until after the Sue Gray report he may well have gone by now.
It certainly isn't the juiciest scandal in history though. I also think those who are saying it is affecting our international standing are talking nonsense as well
The guy in charge of implementing the lockdowns but didn't stick to his rules and repeatedly lied about it in Parliament (this seems to be the part that you have repeatedly, conveniently ignored) gets a pass from you because he has, apparently, given more recognition to how much damage lockdown and WFH has caused for people's mental health than his opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Can you explain why this recognition has helped you?
All 10s from the judges for your performance in the mental gymnastics on this topic, James.
James didn't givd him a pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito Fuente
He said he should have resigned.
I think the accusation might be that if this was someone who James had an inherent dislike of then he wouldn't be so keen to move past it. A call to resign doesn't have a use by date.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elwood Blues
In fairness, James tempered his suggestion that Johnson should resign. He was equally comfortable with a fulsome apology as long as that apology covered making the lockdowns so long and so severe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elwood Blues
He's said he should have resigned but in the same breath says what he did isn't worth the discussion as it was just tea and cake...Quote:
Originally Posted by Elwood Blues
That's giving someone a pass in anyone's book, surely?
I think what you are struggling with is that some people view things differently to how you view them. I agree, he shouldnt have broken his own rules, he was rightly fined, he has rightly apologised and he should have resigned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito Fuente
But he hasn't. And frankly, I have bigger things to care about in my personal life and also in terms of any wider political thoughts. He hasn't resigned, he probably isn't going to. What's the point in going on and on about it?
I use the Brexit second referendum argument merely to illustrate my point - I suspect you thought that was a bit naughty to do that without implementing the first referendum. I suspect you may have thought deep down that it was a bit wrong. A bit unfair etc and likely to alienate millions. But I also doubt you were as angry about it or as exercised as me. I saw it as a total affront to democracy, the way you seem to view 'partygate'.
Thats how these things work, and so be it. The world would be dull if we all thought the same and like I said, I just think we all have bigger things to worry about. But I repeat, I think he should have resigned.
You've got more important things to worry about yet repeatedly tell us we shouldn't care about this. Why waste your time?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Nobody has said that you need to think differently. Ironically people are simply disagreeing with your take on this shambles because we think differently to you. "That's how these things work".
So you decide what is important to people now?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
and I repeat, your previous thought on the subject was this equivocation.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
He should resign, or offer the mother of apologies, including a strong apology for the extent of the lockdown.
F**k me, thats ur take from what I said?! :hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
No, the exact opposite. You can have whatever opinions you like about it. And so too can anyone else. They can think he's done nothing wrong and shouldn't resign. They can thing he's made a minor mistake and apologise. They can think he's made a huge error and should resign, they can think he's committed the political crime of the century and should be in prison for it.
People will always interpret things differently depending on their priorities and strength of feeling for the topic. And that's fine, it's up to them. Like I said, there will be stuff you are probably okay with that I think are absolutely awful and take more seriously. Thats the way of it.
I think this is what I said more recently. A month or two ago, when the photos first emerged, I said he should resign. But he didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
But yes, that is what I thought. I think the severity of lockdown (and perhaps it was necessary) caused enormous mental anguish for millions. I stand by that. I know what it was like for me and my family and that's why I care more about that than cake gate.
Johnsons social gatherings made me lose a lot of respect for him and exposed him as a liar. Lockdown and WFH made me question the benefits of being here - so thats why I get more exercised about the latter than the former.
It's more my take from the 'I am concentrating on the important stuff' vibe you are giving off. If there is a conversation about something you don't get care about, don't respond. I swerve the vast majority of the American politics threads on this board because I couldn't give a ****, I don't go in there telling them to get over it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
I sort of get your point that we all see the lockdown stuff from a personal perspective. Me, being denied access to my incapacitated Mum in a care home for a year and attending my father in law's funeral after his premature death with covid with 9 other people. You with your frank recognition of the impact it had on your mental health, others on the detrimental impact it had on their business.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
We all, each in own way suffered. Running through this though is an unfit Prime Minister who's behaviour and hypocrisy laughed at us all until he was caught, then lied when caught because that's what he has seemingly done all his life.
I don't share the view that all Tories are scum that sometimes populates this Board. Personally if someone gave me a choice of a left leaning party losing the next election because the Tory Party came to its senses and ejected Johnson and his immoral cabal and coalesced around decent (there's that word again) people, I would take it every time.
Every day he stays in power demeans us all. No doubt if he does he will come up with ever more populist headline grabbing nonsense like the Rwandan stuff to turn the headlights on full beam into voters eyes.
I think you are a decent person who generally argues his corner well. It will be interesting to see how far you run with his hounds!
I don't think I've told anyone to get over it. People are welcome to remain furious about it if they want. Others will be annoyed more concerned by other issues. Thats fine, I'm sure there is space and tolerance enough for all those views here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Yeah, I really do understand your position. It must have been horrible experience with your parents.Quote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
My experience was different. My father is ill with a long term degenerative disease. He had endless appointments cancelled and friends stopped calling. My mother is well, but became a recluse. I had the worst mental health I have ever experienced by a country mile. Relationships became very strained. My kids missed lots of school, it felt they were raised by youtube.
That is why I am so proud that the vaccine was our road out of all that horror. We did lead the world on that, and that call was made by the PM. These are just facts.
To me the positives of getting that call right defeats the negative of his indiscretions and rule breaking by a huge margin. It's not that I defend it, I just place less of an emphasis on it than other things.
Other people will view things differently. I absolutely understand the position of people who didnt attend funerals etc and then realise he was having cake with colleagues etc. I get it, I really do.
Covid has just been an absolutely shit thing, it's f***d with us all. I just want to move on from it all if I am honest.
Yes, but move on to what?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
There probably isn't a person in this country of 70 or so million who hasn't been impacted by the way that covid was handled. They will all have their story to tell. Yet the thing that seems to get you proactive and responsive at the moment is dealing with asylum seekers. I can't ever recall meeting one or them having a profound effect positively or negatively on my life. Yet you consider it unbelievable and somewhat shameful that I don't get as worked up about the matter as you obviously do!
Move onto a world not dominated by covid politics.Quote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
In the real world, I havent said a word about it. However, I believe I said it unbelievable and somewhat shameful that people are happy to tolerate the current human trafficking gangs and wider criminal industry that we have effectively outsourced the process to. To which I think you replied that you did and offered an alternative idea (which i suspect wouldnt work). Apologies if I have got the order of that wrong.
There is a different thread for all that mind isn't there..
Here's your quoteQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Honestly, its unbelievable and somewhat shameful how you are okay with the status quo.
You decide if it's general or personal!