Afghanistan , what a waste

[goats]

The Blair and Bush war was based on lies and had only one outcome , opening cans of worms

The Afghanistan invasion was based on the right idea but like other conflicts in that area it was doomed to failure . The taliban are a horrible bunch but they are fierce fighters who will never give in . They retreat , they lie low but they will never be defeated .

Horrific

Bush and Blair have a lot to answer for. The Taliban go and hide out in Pakistan and the warlord control areas, just waiting and no doubt regrouping for when the enemy eventually leave, as they always do……

[AfricanBluebird]

Nice to see some very thoughtful comments on this thread about the terrible situation.

On other places I am seeing some really terrible comments where people are trying to defend their political positions on the issue when in reality... all of the following CAN (and probably is) true..


- We should have never been there... especially without a stronger alliance and plan
- Bush and Blair have a lot to answer for - this had nothing to do with 9/11 and was a stupid intervention
- The US and UK never had a long term hand-over plan and successive governments completely failed our troops and the people of Afghanistan
- Obama had 8 years to develop a plan - he tried but didn't do enough
- Trump negotiated with the Taliban because the Taliban refused to negotiate with the Afghanistan Government and completely messed it up - he had NO idea what he was doing
- Trump made promises to the Taliban which he was in no position to follow on through
- Trump had already agreed for the US to leave as a part of his 'agreement' with the Taliban
- Much of the military weapons and infrastructure being used by the Taliban is US and UK funded (as well as Russian) - what a mess
- Biden completely messed things up with the abrupt and unplanned nature of the withdrawal - he has blood on his hands
- The UK government have shafted Afghans who worked for us, with us and supported our military - they are likely to be executed and Patel has rejected their asylum to the UK because she wants to appease a heartless right-wing base
- People will get executed because the UK doesn't give a shit about people who helped us and the US are acting too late

NO ONE comes out of this looking good, no one!

[chrisp_1927]

Nice to see some very thoughtful comments on this thread about the terrible situation.

On other places I am seeing some really terrible comments where people are trying to defend their political positions on the issue when in reality... all of the following CAN (and probably is) true..


- We should have never been there... especially without a stronger alliance and plan
- Bush and Blair have a lot to answer for - this had nothing to do with 9/11 and was a stupid intervention
- The US and UK never had a long term hand-over plan and successive governments completely failed our troops and the people of Afghanistan
- Obama had 8 years to develop a plan - he tried but didn't do enough
- Trump negotiated with the Taliban because the Taliban refused to negotiate with the Afghanistan Government and completely messed it up - he had NO idea what he was doing
- Trump made promises to the Taliban which he was in no position to follow on through
- Trump had already agreed for the US to leave as a part of his 'agreement' with the Taliban
- Much of the military weapons and infrastructure being used by the Taliban is US and UK funded (as well as Russian) - what a mess
- Biden completely messed things up with the abrupt and unplanned nature of the withdrawal - he has blood on his hands
- The UK government have shafted Afghans who worked for us, with us and supported our military - they are likely to be executed and Patel has rejected their asylum to the UK because she wants to appease a heartless right-wing base
- People will get executed because the UK doesn't give a shit about people who helped us and the US are acting too late

NO ONE comes out of this looking good, no one!

Agree with most of what you said, I do disagree with the idea we never should have been there though. They were harbouring al qaeda, if our mission had been limited to killing as many taliban and al qaeda members as possible I think it would have been positive. I think it was the overreach that caused the problem, followed by the complete lack of any planning that you very rightly point out

[bobh]

We should send in The Wolf and his mate Chung with clicky-ba.

[JamesWales]

Nice to see some very thoughtful comments on this thread about the terrible situation.

On other places I am seeing some really terrible comments where people are trying to defend their political positions on the issue when in reality... all of the following CAN (and probably is) true..


- We should have never been there... especially without a stronger alliance and plan
- Bush and Blair have a lot to answer for - this had nothing to do with 9/11 and was a stupid intervention
- The US and UK never had a long term hand-over plan and successive governments completely failed our troops and the people of Afghanistan
- Obama had 8 years to develop a plan - he tried but didn't do enough
- Trump negotiated with the Taliban because the Taliban refused to negotiate with the Afghanistan Government and completely messed it up - he had NO idea what he was doing
- Trump made promises to the Taliban which he was in no position to follow on through
- Trump had already agreed for the US to leave as a part of his 'agreement' with the Taliban
- Much of the military weapons and infrastructure being used by the Taliban is US and UK funded (as well as Russian) - what a mess
- Biden completely messed things up with the abrupt and unplanned nature of the withdrawal - he has blood on his hands
- The UK government have shafted Afghans who worked for us, with us and supported our military - they are likely to be executed and Patel has rejected their asylum to the UK because she wants to appease a heartless right-wing base
- People will get executed because the UK doesn't give a shit about people who helped us and the US are acting too late

NO ONE comes out of this looking good, no one!

Some of this I agree with, but there is much I dont.

Firstly, The then Afghan govt supported and refused to hand over Al Qaeda operatives involved in 9/11. They had a choice, and having failed to do so, the invasion ensued.

Whether it was justified on humanitarian grounds is a matter for debate, but the Talbians treatment of its people is well known. I think it was a just invasion and war (Iraq is another story..)

It's no use solely blaming the UK and US. We pulled troops out in 2014. And where are other countries? Where is the coalition of nations? If we step up to the plate, yeah we take responsibility but so too do the countries that didnt step up to the plate. The UN have failed.

Biden has totally ballsed this up.

This is nothing new. As you will know, many African states fell to despotic regimes when western nations left. We rightly decry colonialism, but these are incredibly nuanced issues and the people in the countries in question also bare some responsibility. Is support for the Taliban higher than we would like to think for example?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Some of this I agree with, but there is much I dont.

Firstly, The then Afghan govt supported and refused to hand over Al Qaeda operatives involved in 9/11. They had a choice, and having failed to do so, the invasion ensued.

Whether it was justified on humanitarian grounds is a matter for debate, but the Talbians treatment of its people is well known. I think it was a just invasion and war (Iraq is another story..)

It's no use solely blaming the UK and US. We pulled troops out in 2014. And where are other countries? Where is the coalition of nations? If we step up to the plate, yeah we take responsibility but so too do the countries that didnt step up to the plate. The UN have failed.

Biden has totally ballsed this up.

This is nothing new. As you will know, many African states fell to despotic regimes when western nations left. We rightly decry colonialism, but these are incredibly nuanced issues and the people in the countries in question also bare some responsibility. Is support for the Taliban higher than we would like to think for example?

The UK has generally followed whatever its masters , America , have done

And that is , get involved , flex muscles , then feck off

As for the taliban , if some blokes are walking round my village armed with machine guns and say to me .......support us or we kill you and your friends .......I would do what they say

[splott parker]

We should send in The Wolf and his mate Chung with clicky-ba.

I’ve been telling the lads in work that this is the solution……they’ve no clue what I’m on about.

[AfricanBluebird]

Agree with most of what you said, I do disagree with the idea we never should have been there though. They were harbouring al qaeda, if our mission had been limited to killing as many taliban and al qaeda members as possible I think it would have been positive. I think it was the overreach that caused the problem, followed by the complete lack of any planning that you very rightly point out

If I were to write my post again I would perhaps reframe it as "the way we intervened".. yeah something needed to be done but in a more strategic, constructive and collaborative way

[AfricanBluebird]

Some of this I agree with, but there is much I dont.

Firstly, The then Afghan govt supported and refused to hand over Al Qaeda operatives involved in 9/11. They had a choice, and having failed to do so, the invasion ensued.

Whether it was justified on humanitarian grounds is a matter for debate, but the Talbians treatment of its people is well known. I think it was a just invasion and war (Iraq is another story..)

It's no use solely blaming the UK and US. We pulled troops out in 2014. And where are other countries? Where is the coalition of nations? If we step up to the plate, yeah we take responsibility but so too do the countries that didnt step up to the plate. The UN have failed.

Biden has totally ballsed this up.

This is nothing new. As you will know, many African states fell to despotic regimes when western nations left. We rightly decry colonialism, but these are incredibly nuanced issues and the people in the countries in question also bare some responsibility. Is support for the Taliban higher than we would like to think for example?

Yeah fair fair points. Like I said above if I were to write my post again I would perhaps reframe it as "the way we intervened".. yeah something needed to be done but in a more strategic, constructive and collaborative way.. the gung-ho approach led by US and followed by us (and some other countries, out of loyalty to us rather than the cause) contributed to a terrible situation.

And you're right there is always nuanced issues that our governments grapple with

[surge]

Feels like another issue where one's impression of what is happening is at least partly decided by the date you think it started from: some on twitter are pointing out that the Taliban were firstly armed and developed when USA were supporting them to fight back against Soviets.

For all the intervening UK and USA has done in other nations (justified or not) what are the examples where the exit strategy has been pulled off well instead of just creating another mess needing attention in the next decade?

[chrisp_1927]

trouble with that idea will be motar round attacks / rocket attacks / IED / car bombs

its never going to be that secure

Good points, there's a good chance it would have just been a target for every loon with a weapon. Sad to see us sell out the decent Afghani's though

[chrisp_1927]

Feels like another issue where one's impression of what is happening is at least partly decided by the date you think it started from: some on twitter are pointing out that the Taliban were firstly armed and developed when USA were supporting them to fight back against Soviets.

For all the intervening UK and USA has done in other nations (justified or not) what are the examples where the exit strategy has been pulled off well instead of just creating another mess needing attention in the next decade?

I suppose south Korea is one of the few success stories of intervention, partly because the exit strategy has never occurred. The s.korea price of stability is 50 plus years of propping up a quite nasty military dictatorship, and having to leave tens of thousands of forces in the country for a longing time. Now I'd say it's been an overwhelming success and I'm sure most would agree. But it also shows that democracy and security can't be achieved on the cheap.

They have plenty of foreign policy failures , their successes have been expensive. So what on earth made them think that Iraq and Afghanistan could be achieved quickly and easily. It beggars belief that they were so naieve

[AfricanBluebird]

I suppose south Korea is one of the few success stories of intervention, partly because the exit strategy has never occurred. The s.korea price of stability is 50 plus years of propping up a quite nasty military dictatorship, and having to leave tens of thousands of forces in the country for a longing time. Now I'd say it's been an overwhelming success and I'm sure most would agree. But it also shows that democracy and security can't be achieved on the cheap.

They have plenty of foreign policy failures , their successes have been expensive. So what on earth made them think that Iraq and Afghanistan could be achieved quickly and easily. It beggars belief that they were so naieve

Yep, nailed it.

Because in those countries you mentioned (and others) there is not only an an ideology that you're fighting against but also in many ways reinforcing the ideology by a western military intervention.

[chrisp_1927]

Yep, nailed it.

Because in those countries you mentioned (and others) there is not only an an ideology that you're fighting against but also in many ways reinforcing the ideology by a western military intervention.

Very true. The real killer for me was when they let the dea in to start destroying opium fields.

If my livelihood had just been destroyed by a coalition plane I'd have been happy to shoot at them for free. If Tommy taliban comes round and gives me the gun, plus 20 dollars a day to do so I'd have jumped at the chance. These countries, and the lives of their people and our soldiers seem like a plaything to our leaders sometimes

[LeningradCowboy]

Insane. Don’t have any other words.

The Kabul Airport.

pic.twitter.com/ylraJsDyme

— Ragıp Soylu (@ragipsoylu) August 16, 2021

[AfricanBluebird]

To add insult to injury Mike Pompeo met with Taliban Head of the Political Office Mullah Beradar on September 12, 2020.

Beradar is now set to become the new President of Afghanistan!

President Trump had Beradar released from a Pakistani prison in 2018.

US state dept press release:

https://t.co/64gZZuu05G

[Sunnysideup]

The images of the military plane taxiing along the runway are unbelievable 🤭
BBC headlines are saying the Military part of Kabul airport is secure pmsl 🤣

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Insane. Don’t have any other words.

The Kabul Airport.

pic.twitter.com/ylraJsDyme

— Ragıp Soylu (@ragipsoylu) August 16, 2021

Jesus christ

[dandywarhol]

Jesus christ

Heartbreaking people.Where the **** is NATO,People falling off aeroplanes.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...irbridges.html

[Tuerto]

Yep, nailed it.

Because in those countries you mentioned (and others) there is not only an an ideology that you're fighting against but also in many ways reinforcing the ideology by a western military intervention.

And some countries don't like being invaded and occupied either, especially when things go spectacularly wrong and a puppet administration is put into power to appease the invaders. It can make the most mild mannered and liberal of people very angry. I think that there is a tendency not to consider the fact that people don't like occupying forces. The peace deak with the taliban is an absolute joke, and the Afghan government have pulled plenty of strokes and crimes against it's people. The US and it's allies have monumentally ****ed things up. They've basically told the Taliban to behave themselves, and the Taliban have said, sure thing! All this implemented as the US were wriggling out the back door. It's the political equivalent and behaviour of a teenage child threatening to leave home while running to the bathroom and locking the door.

[Feedback]

Yep
Leave them to it !!
Throughout history nobody has ever beaten the Afghans in thousands of years
The biggest export is Grapes - Rugs and opioids
Feck them
Last one out please turn off the lights!!!
I

Bollocks

From the time of Alexander the Great to the British Empire playing the Great Game with Russia, Afghanistan has been part of 7 different empires.

[Feedback]

Exactly
Afghanistan “the graveyard of Empires”

Thats just not true