Does Putin really want a world war or ?

[life on mars]

Re: Does Putin really want a world war or ?

Jesus Christ, even in the face of an autocrat invading another country, you too still manage to whinge about Boris Johnson.

When the points are relevant to the discussion, I generally disagree with you, but at least they are pertinent. But when the matter in hand is a serious geo-political conflict then your anti-Boris posts are just embarrassing.

Get a grip

Whatever sanctions we're announced you would have very little support , or the usual ""is that it " quote which in now the favoured advisors advise , at least Labour appear to be anti Russian and not anti NATO / USA ( or are they)

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: Does Putin really want a world war or ?

hmmmm...lets see.

I posted the below in response to someone elses post when discussing the build up to the invasion, in respect of misinformation, and people taking Putins position etc. Diane Abbot is the former home secretary and represents a slice of public opinion (that crosses the political spectrum) which frequently dances to Putins tune. Note that in that response, I recognise things not being black and white, recognise the west wanting regime change and defend Abbots right to say what she likes - balance!

"In fairness, nothing ever is entirely black or white. There is no doubt the west would like regime change in Russia for example, but that doesn't change who the aggressor is, which is plainly Russia which cannot get over an independent Ukraine looking towards the west
Nonetheless, here are the troops;

https://order-order.com/2022/02/11/s...kraine-crisis/

I should add, I entirely support Corbyn and Abbott's right to say whatever the hell they like."

https://www.ccmb.co.uk/showthread.php?452057-Ukraine-Conflict-Getting-Very-Close&highlight=guido

In this thread, on the day after Russia invades a sovereign country, breaking numerous moral and legal laws, we have the usual crowd instantly turning it into a situation to blame...guess who...Putin? nope. Boris Johnson - why of course!

The people of the Ukraine will be glad to know people are using this situation as an oppotunity to make cheap comments about the decorating of the Prime Ministers flat.

And you have ZERO idea that the sanctions we have imposed are not just and correct. You have no idea whatsoever. The point is to strike a balance between sanctions whilst also trying to de-escalate the situation.

That the day after the invasion the usual lot are instantly moaning about Boris Johnson says a lot

Personally, I think we could go further, but we are not privy to all the information. Irrespective, to start insinuating we are doing what we are doing due to corruption is, frankly, and ironically, dancing to Putins tune more than anything else, and there is not a shread of evidence for it.

Oh spare us the sanctimony. You knew exactly why you dug up the Abbot video and it had nothing to do with balance (She's never been Home Secretary by the way or even held any kind of ministerial position). You showed your cards a little later in the thread. At that point you appeared more interested in the supposed petty point scoring you frown upon from others and one can only ponder on what the people of the Ukraine were thinking when you did it.

But claiming the west or NATO are the aggressors here is plainly absurd and just typical or the standard anti-American tropes that are pretty common amongst many in those circles.

I at least agree that Johnson's flat has little to do with this issue, though not irrelevant more generally. It would appear based on your over the top generalisations that a significant cross section of Parliament, from ERG members other Tory MPs, Labour, Lib-Dem, Green and SNP are, completely without evidence, also dancing to Putin's tune in criticising the government response.

[life on mars]

Re: Does Putin really want a world war or ?

If it has been easy to move Russian and other countries money and influence nto the UK it would be done by now It remains unanswered even for our crime agencies .


ONS estimate Russian money at 25bn not a huge sum In global terms , interestingly Finland has twice that invested and we don't seem bothered about that . ?

Money comes from obscure origins and shell companies and from many other countries, thats what makes our banking services so* attractive its one of our strengths that keeps our economy afloat .

Russian money poured in under Blair as well .

Sadiq Khan’s has had donations from Elena Baturina wife of a Moscow Mayor no wonder he allows blow ups of Trump,* not seen one of Putin yet , it's not just Tories you have to examine.


Britain was* bankrupt after* WW2 along came* the Soviet Union, who didn’t want to keep its dollars in US banks. It preferred London.

Why Russia and Britain perhaps its because Russia is il gas rich and lacks bank services and influences ,* whereas Britain is very strong in the later.

Yes the sanctions are weak its because its way too complicated and to get honest what else can they do .

British government didn't renew Romans Abramovichs visa either .


To be fair to the UK its been smarter than Europe n moving away from Russian gas year on year as its uses its own resources, so perhaps pat on the back
Is deserving.

Russia is probably very worried about renewables and the reduction in fossil needs , guess thats why they didn't engage with us and World at Climate Change summits .

[JamesWales]

Re: Does Putin really want a world war or ?

Oh spare us the sanctimony. You knew exactly why you dug up the Abbot video and it had nothing to do with balance (She's never been Home Secretary by the way or even held any kind of ministerial position). You showed your cards a little later in the thread. At that point you appeared more interested in the supposed petty point scoring you frown upon from others and one can only ponder on what the people of the Ukraine were thinking when you did it.

But claiming the west or NATO are the aggressors here is plainly absurd and just typical or the standard anti-American tropes that are pretty common amongst many in those circles.

I at least agree that Johnson's flat has little to do with this issue, though not irrelevant more generally. It would appear based on your over the top generalisations that a significant cross section of Parliament, from ERG members other Tory MPs, Labour, Lib-Dem, Green and SNP are, completely without evidence, also dancing to Putin's tune in criticising the government response.

No, you spare us the sanctimony.

The Ukraine has been invaded by Russia and some people on here instantly turn that into misinformation about Russian oligarchs and Tory donors and Johnsons flat. Exactly the kind of nonsense that spreads online, often emanating from Russia itself, and precisely the kind of cheap tropes that, ironically enough, Putin himself thrives upon.

If your first response to an invasion is to go on about Boris Johnsons flat, then you don't care two hoots about Ukraine. The same people who supported a man who endlessly defends Russia now demand that sanctions be harsher, with no real understanding of what the sanctions entail or whether they will or wont work. Give me a break.

And Diane Abbott was shadow home secretary. I am well aware that thankfully she never held office, so the most likely scenario here is a typo on my behalf (I neglected to write the word shadow).

It was a relevent point in a previous discussion because parts of the British left have emboldened Putin for many years, particularly when they captured the Labour party. This is a problem on the right too - note Aaron Bank's tweets today.

What this is absolutely feck all to do with is Boris Johnson's flat and people should be called out for spreading utter crap like that IMO, whether it's on twitter or on the micro-climate of CCMB.

I'm happy to call it out. You shout at me for doing so.

This is a very volatile situation. Implying our response is entirely rooted in corruption is as unhelpful as it is baseless.

[jon1959]

Re: Does Putin really want a world war or ?

hmmmm...lets see.

I posted the below in response to someone elses post when discussing the build up to the invasion, in respect of misinformation, and people taking Putins position etc. Diane Abbot is the former home secretary and represents a slice of public opinion (that crosses the political spectrum) which frequently dances to Putins tune. Note that in that response, I recognise things not being black and white, recognise the west wanting regime change and defend Abbots right to say what she likes - balance!

"In fairness, nothing ever is entirely black or white. There is no doubt the west would like regime change in Russia for example, but that doesn't change who the aggressor is, which is plainly Russia which cannot get over an independent Ukraine looking towards the west
Nonetheless, here are the troops;

https://order-order.com/2022/02/11/s...kraine-crisis/

I should add, I entirely support Corbyn and Abbott's right to say whatever the hell they like."

https://www.ccmb.co.uk/showthread.php?452057-Ukraine-Conflict-Getting-Very-Close&highlight=guido

In this thread, on the day after Russia invades a sovereign country, breaking numerous moral and legal laws, we have the usual crowd instantly turning it into a situation to blame...guess who...Putin? nope. Boris Johnson - why of course!

The people of the Ukraine will be glad to know people are using this situation as an oppotunity to make cheap comments about the decorating of the Prime Ministers flat.

And you have ZERO idea that the sanctions we have imposed are not just and correct. You have no idea whatsoever. The point is to strike a balance between sanctions whilst also trying to de-escalate the situation.

That the day after the invasion the usual lot are instantly moaning about Boris Johnson says a lot

Personally, I think we could go further, but we are not privy to all the information. Irrespective, to start insinuating we are doing what we are doing due to corruption is, frankly, and ironically, dancing to Putins tune more than anything else, and there is not a shread of evidence for it.

Are 'the usual lot' the posters who consistently have a different opinion to you? Posters who don't use 'balance' as an excuse to let corruption and incompetence off the hook? Posters who don't think an ideal world is formed by a 50:50 mix of good and bad?

The subject of discussion today is sanctions. That is the subject everywhere - in assemblies, on social media, on TV, across mainstream media platforms. You seem very reluctant to engage with that, apart from championing the spin put forward by Boris Johnson's spokesperson (presumably Guto Hari).

With the exception of hardcore Johnson loyalists and the Daily Express (and you) most opinion is that the package announced by Johnson (in his best Churchillian mode) was thin, tepid, barely catching up with what other 'allies' have had in place for years. A significant part of the reaction to this pathetic gesture is that the Tory party are unwilling to go further - at least for now - because of their long-term relationship with Russian and London based oligarchs and actors allied to Putin.

The jibe about funding flat decorations was just a short-hand for that twisted relationship. The appearance is certainly there - and I suspect it is also a factor in the political calculation.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/revealed-russian-donors-have-stepped-tory-funding/

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: Does Putin really want a world war or ?

No, you spare us the sanctimony.

The Ukraine has been invaded by Russia and some people on here instantly turn that into misinformation about Russian oligarchs and Tory donors and Johnsons flat. Exactly the kind of nonsense that spreads online, often emanating from Russia itself, and precisely the kind of cheap tropes that, ironically enough, Putin himself thrives upon.

If your first response to an invasion is to go on about Boris Johnsons flat, then you don't care two hoots about Ukraine. The same people who supported a man who endlessly defends Russia now demand that sanctions be harsher, with no real understanding of what the sanctions entail or whether they will or wont work. Give me a break.

And Diane Abbott was shadow home secretary. I am well aware that thankfully she never held office, so the most likely scenario here is a typo on my behalf (I neglected to write the word shadow).

It was a relevent point in a previous discussion because parts of the British left have emboldened Putin for many years, particularly when they captured the Labour party. This is a problem on the right too - note Aaron Bank's tweets today.

What this is absolutely feck all to do with is Boris Johnson's flat and people should be called out for spreading utter crap like that IMO, whether it's on twitter or on the micro-climate of CCMB.

I'm happy to call it out. You shout at me for doing so.

Let's get this right,

You think that a couple of people posting on a football messageboard will set the internet ablaze with stuff that has Putin rubbing his hands with glee? In fact the Russians probably started all this misinformation about Russian donations to the Tory Party and the UK's liberal approach to Russian money in the UK in the first place.

I see shares in some Russian banks have gone up since the UK sanctions were announced, quite an achievement. Also that Liz Truss is rolling out the "this is the first of a series of escalating steps2. Rhetoric somewhat different to Johnson's "barrage of sanctions" stuff of earlier. A sure sign that they have missed the ball.

The serious issue is whether anything that the UK has done has any relevant meaning. Germany has had a hard time from you and others on Nordstream2. I know where my money is on regarding which steps the West are taking has grabbed Putin's attention.

[JamesWales]

Re: Does Putin really want a world war or ?

Are 'the usual lot' the posters who consistently have a different opinion to you? Posters who don't use 'balance' as an excuse to let corruption and incompetence off the hook? Posters who don't think an ideal world is formed by a 50:50 mix of good and bad?

The subject of discussion today is sanctions. That is the subject everywhere - in assemblies, on social media, on TV, across mainstream media platforms. You seem very reluctant to engage with that, apart from championing the spin put forward by Boris Johnson's spokesperson (presumably Guto Hari).

With the exception of hardcore Johnson loyalists and the Daily Express (and you) most opinion is that the package announced by Johnson (in his best Churchillian mode) was thin, tepid, barely catching up with what other 'allies' have had in place for years. A significant part of the reaction to this pathetic gesture is that the Tory party are unwilling to go further - at least for now - because of their long-term relationship with Russian and London based oligarchs and actors allied to Putin. The jibe about funding flat decorations was just a short-hand for that twisted relationship.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dar...-tory-funding/

Do you have any evidence whatsoever for the insinuation earlier when you said? "Do we now know who is lined up to pay the next redecoration bill for the flat?"

Do you have any firm, clear idea that what the UK is proposing definitely won't work and definitely won't help to de-escalate the situation?

The answer to both is a resounding no.

Spreading nonsense online is never helpful, even if it's just a football messageboard. Doing it after a country has been invaded makes it even less helpful.

This is an incredibly tense and important situation. You don't know what the right response is yet, and nor do I. Either way, I repeat, this is nothing to do with decorating a flat and you shouldn't use this situation to make some cheap political point.

[JamesWales]

Re: Does Putin really want a world war or ?

Let's get this right,

You think that a couple of people posting on a football messageboard will set the internet ablaze with stuff that has Putin rubbing his hands with glee? In fact the Russians probably started all this misinformation about Russian donations to the Tory Party and the UK's liberal approach to Russian money in the UK in the first place.

I see shares in some Russian banks have gone up since the UK sanctions were announced, quite an achievement. Also that Liz Truss is rolling out the "this is the first of a series of escalating steps2. Rhetoric somewhat different to Johnson's "barrage of sanctions" stuff of earlier. A sure sign that they have missed the ball.

The serious issue is whether anything that the UK has done has any relevant meaning. Germany has had a hard time from you and others on Nordstream2. I know where my money is on regarding which steps the West are taking has grabbed Putin's attention.

Germany has done nothing on Nordsteam. They havent ripped up the pipeline you know. It isnt currently operating. The UK's actions at this juncture probably has a more direct immediate impact

Poland by the way, have criticised Germany. And as for the EU: A senior EU diplomat previously said there was "a whole escalation ladder, starting with Russian individuals and moving up to finance, trade, and eventually energy", adding: "A lot is possible."

It seems that the UK approach is probably pretty much in line with others.

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-crisis-germany-halts-approval-of-nord-stream-2-gas-pipeline-from-russia-12548612

[jon1959]

Re: Does Putin really want a world war or ?

Either way, I repeat, this is nothing to do with decorating a flat and you shouldn't use this situation to make some cheap political point.

If you think £840 a roll is cheap you are more out of touch than I thought!

[JamesWales]

Re: Does Putin really want a world war or ?

If you think £840 a roll is cheap you are more out of touch than I thought!

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: Does Putin really want a world war or ?

Germany has done nothing on Nordsteam. They havent ripped up the pipeline you know. It isnt currently operating. The UK's actions at this juncture probably has a more direct immediate impact

Poland by the way, have criticised Germany. And as for the EU: A senior EU diplomat previously said there was "a whole escalation ladder, starting with Russian individuals and moving up to finance, trade, and eventually energy", adding: "A lot is possible."

It seems that the UK approach is probably pretty much in line with others.

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-c...ussia-12548612

For some reason you missed this bit at the bottom.

ANALYSIS BY ADAM PARSONS, EUROPE CORRESPONDENT
Germany’s decision to shutter the Nord Stream 2 pipeline is a big one, for all sorts of reasons.

For one thing, it will cost Russia money in energy exports.

That’s bad for the Russian economy, and also troubling for some of the oligarchs who surround the Russian leader.

For another, it shows that Germany – the richest country in the European Union – is prepared to follow through on its threats.

Chancellor Olaf Scholz was very slow to accept that the future of Nord Stream 2 had to be on the table – now, he’s delivered, fast.

It’s also a sign that the European Union is serious about acting quickly against Russia – perhaps quicker and more determinedly than President Putin would have thought.

Losing Nord Stream 2 (and it’s not clear whether it’s been cancelled, or just indefinitely postponed) will hurt Germany, but it’s a price that Mr Scholz is willing to pay.

That’s a pretty clear message to send to Moscow.

[life on mars]

Re: Does Putin really want a world war or ?

What a stupid and selfish project Nord Stream 2 was , nevermind Boris , the Germans should really look at themselves, their supposed to be part of a European block, by agreeing this pipeline its squeezes revenues from Poland and Ukraine, makes them reliant on a country that has no morals, no democracy and is happy to break every rule in the book from assainations, suppression of free speech , and free liberties , shame on you Germany .

Gosh just imagine if Germany had said at the outset no to Nord Stream 2 not oh its halted ?

I hear an ex German chancellor is now on the board of Gazprom now that is real cronyism.

Wasn't Merkel Eastern German , and cozy with Putin ??

[ToTaL ITK]

Re: Does Putin really want a world war or ?

What a stupid and selfish project Nord Stream 2 was , nevermind Boris , the Germans should really look at themselves, their supposed to be part of a European block, by agreeing this pipeline its squeezes revenues from Poland and Ukraine, makes them reliant on a country that has no morals, no democracy and is happy to break every rule in the book from assainations, suppression of free speech , and free liberties , shame on you Germany .

Gosh just imagine if Germany had said at the outset no to Nord Stream 2 not oh its halted ?

I hear an ex German chancellor is now on the board of Gazprom now that is real cronyism.

Wasn't Merkel Eastern German , and cozy with Putin ??

The british goverment! albieit the conservatives have allowed the russian oligarchs to do what they want with their backing.
I believe that Putin has waited for a weak Europe to start his expance of russia.
Merkel was a hard liner..boris and the rest of europe today is like a day old triffle .

[jon1959]

Re: Does Putin really want a world war or ?

What a stupid and selfish project Nord Stream 2 was , nevermind Boris , the Germans should really look at themselves, their supposed to be part of a European block, by agreeing this pipeline its squeezes revenues from Poland and Ukraine, makes them reliant on a country that has no morals, no democracy and is happy to break every rule in the book from assainations, suppression of free speech , and free liberties , shame on you Germany .

Gosh just imagine if Germany had said at the outset no to Nord Stream 2 not oh its halted ?

I hear an ex German chancellor is now on the board of Gazprom now that is real cronyism.

Wasn't Merkel Eastern German , and cozy with Putin ??

Where do you get that from?

If anything Putin timed his Crimea move to coincide with Merkel leaving office.

I disagree with almost everything she stood for - but she was a giant amongst European politicians and often brave with it.

She was no friend of Putin. Christian Democrats and Authoritarian Nationalists (Russian Mafia) don't have that much in common!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/20/i-dont-hold-back-merkel-to-pay-putin-a-farewell-kremlin-visit

[Wales-Bales]

Re: Does Putin really want a world war or ?

The british goverment! albieit the conservatives have allowed the russian oligarchs to do what they want with their backing.
I believe that Putin has waited for a weak Europe to start his expance of russia.
Merkel was a hard liner..boris and the rest of europe today is like a day old triffle .

Not in my opinion, as they have both been involved with the WEF since the early 90's, so the situation may be more coherent than it appears. Pay attention to events affecting Western Europe such as economic fallout, and any proposed solutions.