Why does Islam fit in so comfortably with modern left wing views?

[blackrock bluebird]

It’s like a vegan not wanting to tell their buddy who’s always trash-talking plant-based diets that they’ve gone vegan. They won't risk anything

[Wash DC Blue]

Just looking back.

Is it possible to talk about Islam without mentioning the atrocities in the Middle East and also compare it to Christianity?

I personally believe that Islam is fascist as ****.
It just happens to be an enemy of “my enemy” to some who would like to see wholesale change in society.

Much like the Mujahidin was used against The Soviets.

I still can’t see how it is possible to defend Islam as a progressive person unless you want to use it to break the West.

The treatment of Women and Homosexuals alone should really be enough then there is apostasy.

If you compare this to Christianity by saying all religions are shite and the reason behind conflict, I think you are disingenuous or maybe ignorant at best.

I fully believe that it’s a tool used now by Marxists that was used before by capitalists to drive change and all the while there is a death cult raging that people are too scared to call out.

I’m honestly baffled by the tolerances of some and the cowardice of others.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Just looking back.

Is it possible to talk about Islam without mentioning the atrocities in the Middle East and also compare it to Christianity?

I personally believe that Islam is fascist as ****.
It just happens to be an enemy of “my enemy” to some who would like to see wholesale change in society.

Much like the Mujahidin was used against The Soviets.

I still canÂ’t see how it is possible to defend Islam as a progressive person unless you want to use it to break the West.

The treatment of Women and Homosexuals alone should really be enough then there is apostasy.

If you compare this to Christianity by saying all religions are shite and the reason behind conflict, I think you are disingenuous or maybe ignorant at best.

I fully believe that itÂ’s a tool used now by Marxists that was used before by capitalists to drive change and all the while there is a death cult raging that people are too scared to call out.

IÂ’m honestly baffled by the tolerances of some and the cowardice of others.

But all religions are that , utter shite

I tolerate Islam , Christianity and the rest but I still think its all cobblers

Fascism could be directed at us good old whitey christian settlers murdering thousands of aborigines

And for spreading poison the missionaries in Africa ? Christianity has screwed that country right up

Its possible to not be interested in any faith or religion but still accept that MOST of its followers are OK.....most Muslims I know are OK....the faith like so many others is beyond me but that's religion

[Wash DC Blue]

But all religions are that , utter shite

I tolerate Islam , Christianity and the rest but I still think its all cobblers

Fascism could be directed at us good old whitey christian settlers murdering thousands of aborigines

And for spreading poison the missionaries in Africa ? Christianity has screwed that country right up

Its possible to not be interested in any faith or religion but still accept that MOST of its followers are OK.....most Muslims I know are OK....the faith like so many others is beyond me but that's religion

This really is the crux of my mindset with this.
I watched an interview between Jon Stewart who I think is fantastic and Salman Rushdie who I also think is fantastic.

Of course it’s nobody’s business what Salman Rushdie finds cathartic, he’s a brilliant mind.
This interview though irked me a bit as to how his attack was brought around to YouTube and other Social Media’s Algorithms brainwashing and was the same as a school shooter as opposed to what it was…a guy who confessed that he did it, because he was offended by The Satanic Verses.

To come back to your post, the vast majority of Muslims that I have been lucky enough to get to know have been lovely.
There was a poster on here a few years back, adz. He was super nice and I couldn’t imagine anybody on here wishing ill on him because of his faith (not that they would for anyone’s faith).

There does have to be a distinction between Muslims and Islam though.
It’s my belief that Muslims are the primary victims of Islam.

One of Salman’s greatest friends was Christopher Hitchings again somebody that I admired and disagreed with a lot.
As one of the primary atheists out there 20 odd years ango…even he could draw the distinction between Islam and other faiths.

I don’t want to beat a dead horse here, but I am honestly baffled as to why such a barbaric set of beliefs seem to go unopposed and put into the mix with other faiths (That are challenged regularly).

Later in the video, shows how F’ing stupid we have become regarding disagreements which is true for everybody in this polarized world that we find ourselves in.

Here’s the video if you are interested.
https://youtu.be/kjOLVFshZ0I?si=wTt2ORS7mZ-VFk99

[Taunton Blue Genie]

This really is the crux of my mindset with this.
I watched an interview between Jon Stewart who I think is fantastic and Salman Rushdie who I also think is fantastic.

Of course it’s nobody’s business what Salman Rushdie finds cathartic, he’s a brilliant mind.
This interview though irked me a bit as to how his attack was brought around to YouTube and other Social Media’s Algorithms brainwashing and was the same as a school shooter as opposed to what it was…a guy who confessed that he did it, because he was offended by The Satanic Verses.

To come back to your post, the vast majority of Muslims that I have been lucky enough to get to know have been lovely.
There was a poster on here a few years back, adz. He was super nice and I couldn’t imagine anybody on here wishing ill on him because of his faith (not that they would for anyone’s faith).

There does have to be a distinction between Muslims and Islam though.
It’s my belief that Muslims are the primary victims of Islam.

One of Salman’s greatest friends was Christopher Hitchings again somebody that I admired and disagreed with a lot.
As one of the primary atheists out there 20 odd years ango…even he could draw the distinction between Islam and other faiths.

I don’t want to beat a dead horse here, but I am honestly baffled as to why such a barbaric set of beliefs seem to go unopposed and put into the mix with other faiths (That are challenged regularly).

Later in the video, shows how F’ing stupid we have become regarding disagreements which is true for everybody in this polarized world that we find ourselves in.

Here’s the video if you are interested.
https://youtu.be/kjOLVFshZ0I?si=wTt2ORS7mZ-VFk99

Christianity's most punitive and controlling era has long gone. It still too much power and influence (and my personal opinion is that indoctrinating children with religion is a form of abuse) but most of us don't live in fear of criticising Christianity as we see fit. Most people can go about their day without any ado.

Islam is so much worse though. I have travelled through quite a number of countries where Islam is the major religion and it has a far stronger control over many of its adherents. However, it's difficult for well-known people to espouse such comments at they may either be attacked (a la Salman Rushdie) or be accused of racism.

Reigion is bunk, parochial, primitive, divisive, often fear-making and incredibly infantilising.

Believers of any current religion would have been adherents to Zeus, Freya, Shiva, Ra, Buddha, Ebisu, Itzamná, Sedna, Abu-Mehsu (or any one of tens of thousands of gods) had they been born of different parents in a different time and space.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

P.S. I find religion fascinating as part of human history, of course. The forms it came in, who spread them (conquerors usually), the fears and hopes of the populace, primitive people in their ignorance assigning assigning natural events to gods and seeing natural phenomena as being messages from deities etc.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

This really is the crux of my mindset with this.
I watched an interview between Jon Stewart who I think is fantastic and Salman Rushdie who I also think is fantastic.

Of course itÂ’s nobodyÂ’s business what Salman Rushdie finds cathartic, heÂ’s a brilliant mind.
This interview though irked me a bit as to how his attack was brought around to YouTube and other Social MediaÂ’s Algorithms brainwashing and was the same as a school shooter as opposed to what it wasÂ…a guy who confessed that he did it, because he was offended by The Satanic Verses.

To come back to your post, the vast majority of Muslims that I have been lucky enough to get to know have been lovely.
There was a poster on here a few years back, adz. He was super nice and I couldnÂ’t imagine anybody on here wishing ill on him because of his faith (not that they would for anyoneÂ’s faith).

There does have to be a distinction between Muslims and Islam though.
ItÂ’s my belief that Muslims are the primary victims of Islam.

One of SalmanÂ’s greatest friends was Christopher Hitchings again somebody that I admired and disagreed with a lot.
As one of the primary atheists out there 20 odd years angoÂ…even he could draw the distinction between Islam and other faiths.

I donÂ’t want to beat a dead horse here, but I am honestly baffled as to why such a barbaric set of beliefs seem to go unopposed and put into the mix with other faiths (That are challenged regularly).

Later in the video, shows how FÂ’ing stupid we have become regarding disagreements which is true for everybody in this polarized world that we find ourselves in.

HereÂ’s the video if you are interested.
https://youtu.be/kjOLVFshZ0I?si=wTt2ORS7mZ-VFk99

BBC News - Jeremy Bowen: Israeli settlers intensify campaign to drive out West Bank Palestinians - BBC News
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj4wwxz12jko

Who is barbaric here ?

Its the Jews

[Tuerto]

Christianity's most punitive and controlling era has long gone. It still too much power and influence (and my personal opinion is that indoctrinating children with religion is a form of abuse) but most of us don't live in fear of criticising Christianity as we see fit. Most people can go about their day without any ado.

Islam is so much worse though. I have travelled through quite a number of countries where Islam is the major religion and it has a far stronger control over many of its adherents. However, it's difficult for well-known people to espouse such comments at they may either be attacked (a la Salman Rushdie) or be accused of racism.

Reigion is bunk, parochial, primitive, divisive, often fear-making and incredibly infantilising.

Believers of any current religion would have been adherents to Zeus, Freya, Shiva, Ra, Buddha, Ebisu, Itzamná, Sedna, Abu-Mehsu (or any one of tens of thousands of gods) had they been born of different parents in a different time and space.

Interesting that you believe that introducing children to religion is a form of Abuse. It's not something i would agree with, but you're more than entitled to hold that opinion (obviously) What else( if anything) would you say was abusive towards children in terms of parenting, because in my opinion there are a fair few things that parents do to their kids or normalise in front of them, that are worse than sending a kid to a faith school and dragging them to church now and again. This isn't meant as a dig at you by the way, it's just by referencing religion you are referencing culture, and as we all know, culture is everything.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Interesting that you believe that introducing children to religion is a form of Abuse. It's not something i would agree with, but you're more than entitled to hold that opinion (obviously) What else( if anything) would you say was abusive towards children in terms of parenting, because in my opinion there are a fair few things that parents do to their kids or normalise in front of them, that are worse than sending a kid to a faith school and dragging them to church now and again. This isn't meant as a dig at you by the way, it's just by referencing religion you are referencing culture, and as we all know, culture is everything.

I don't see the point of thinking about other things that are abusive to children as the parameters of this discussion would be incredibly wide, to say the least.

Just a few points off the top of my head regarding why I consider indoctrination of religion is abuse:

1. Children are informed in some religions that they are born as sinners.
2. They are informed that if they don't comply to a holy book foisted upon them that they will burn in hell.
3. Apostates in some religions can be shunned or punished.
3. In some religions, including Abrahamist religions, they are sexually mutilated as babies.
4. They are led to believe a myriad of fairy stories as if they were fact and whilst the religion they are introduced to has a history of denying factual information (and punishing those who promulgate such information).
5. They are led to believe in deities for which there is zero proof.
6. Religions tend to be run at the top table by males (who are ofen celibate) and have traditionally taught their adherents that females are chattels. Women have been historically subjugated as a result.
7. Religions sometimes foist upon a population their own portfolio of morals in their holy books - and which include stoning people for adultery and blasphemy, killing those who believe in other gods, a death penalty for homosexuality etc etc etc. (Most believers seem to happily gloss over such references in their respective tomes).
8. Religions and schisms thereof are divisive.
9. They encourage to believe in fantasy and are to be punished if they don't.
10. Religions are controlling. Many of them insist (or once insisted) that their adherents have to wear certain headgear, specific clothing, pray, pay tithes, eat only what is specified and on what days, to have sexual relations consistent with specific diktats, to rest and work on specific days.

I am meeting a dear friend, an ex-colleague, tomorrow for coffee. He is a lay-preacher in his spare time and has had to cherry-pick and sometimes change the church he attends - as he is a fundamentalist and believes in the talking snake and virgin birth whereas his peers think that the Bible is partly parable and not all literally true. Such schisms permeate religions as different parties compile, edit and interpret different sources etc (and to imagine that there is only one Bible is silly, of course).
Anyway, this chap is very altruistic within his parameters but told me a few years ago that one of his progeny went away to university and 'lost his religion', as it were. It was a huge bombshell to the family as their lives revolve around religion.
I saw my friend in passing last week (and arranged tomorrow's coffee stop) and he advised me that his son now has children, who he has not brought up in religion but he has advised them that they can discuss the subject matter with their grandparents (and they do) and they are allowed make up their own minds as to how they choose to view the world, humanity and a lot else.
Sadly, religions do not take this path. Quite the opposite.

[Tuerto]

I don't see the point of thinking about other things that are abusive to children as the parameters of this discussion would be incredibly wide, to say the least.

Just a few points off the top of my head regarding why I consider indoctrination of religion is abuse:

1. Children are informed in some religions that they are born as sinners.
2. They are informed that if they don't comply to a holy book foisted upon them that they will burn in hell.
3. Apostates in some religions can be shunned or punished.
3. In some religions, including Abrahamist religions, they are sexually mutilated as babies.
4. They are led to believe a myriad of fairy stories as if they were fact and whilst the religion they are introduced to has a history of denying factual information (and punishing those who promulgate such information).
5. They are led to believe in deities for which there is zero proof.
6. Religions tend to be run at the top table by males (who are ofen celibate) and have traditionally taught their adherents that females are chattels. Women have been historically subjugated as a result.
7. Religions sometimes foist upon a population their own portfolio of morals in their holy books - and which include stoning people for adultery and blasphemy, killing those who believe in other gods, a death penalty for homosexuality etc etc etc. (Most believers seem to happily gloss over such references in their respective tomes).
8. Religions and schisms thereof are divisive.
9. They encourage to believe in fantasy and are to be punished if they don't.
10. Religions are controlling. Many of them insist (or once insisted) that their adherents have to wear certain headgear, specific clothing, pray, pay tithes, eat only what is specified and on what days, to have sexual relations consistent with specific diktats, to rest and work on specific days.

I am meeting a dear friend, an ex-colleague, tomorrow for coffee. He is a lay-preacher in his spare time and has had to cherry-pick and sometimes change the church he attends - as he is a fundamentalist and believes in the talking snake and virgin birth whereas his peers think that the Bible is partly parable and not all literally true. Such schisms permeate religions as different parties compile, edit and interpret different sources etc (and to imagine that there is only one Bible is silly, of course).
Anyway, this chap is very altruistic within his parameters but told me a few years ago that one of his progeny went away to university and 'lost his religion', as it were. It was a huge bombshell to the family as their lives revolve around religion.
I saw my friend in passing last week (and arranged tomorrow's coffee stop) and he advised me that his son now has children, who he has not brought up in religion but he has advised them that they can discuss the subject matter with their grandparents (and they do) and they are allowed make up their own minds as to how they choose to view the world, humanity and a lot else.
Sadly, religions do not take this path. Quite the opposite.

I'm not going to counter what you say really, i'm aware of most of what you say as i was brought up with a religious mother ( she passed away last Monday and i'm now in the process of arranging a requiem mass for her and all that goes with it) My Father was brought up even more hard lined than my Mother, he could recite a requiem mass in Latin, Bit he denounced it all in his early twenties, got involved with The International Socialists (Later The Socialist Workers Party, became a prominent member Of The ANL, A Trade Unionist and Sat on the Council of The 'Respect Party' oddly enough, my mother was a huge part of those groups as well, although her Faith stayed close to her and there were some very interesting conversations to had at my house

My point is that The 'Establishment' can only do so much damage, most parents don't really believe all of that stuff, even the kids find it fanciful these days, and i can honestly say that i never had it rammed down my throat, was allowed to make my own decisions on faith and participation in it, and never once felt forced or indoctrinated as you put it. I don't believe in it, and i see the wrong it creates, but i'm not unique, there's millions of people like me who weren't brainwashed just because our parent or parents decided to det us Baptised or Christened. I'm sure though that in less developed countries where the church and the state play a more significant role, that people are controlled by religion..

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I'm not going to counter what you say really, i'm aware of most of what you say as i was brought up with a religious mother ( she passed away last Monday and i'm now in the process of arranging a requiem mass for her and all that goes with it) My Father was brought up even more hard lined than my Mother, he could recite a requiem mass in Latin, Bit he denounced it all in his early twenties, got involved with The International Socialists (Later The Socialist Workers Party, became a prominent member Of The ANL, A Trade Unionist and Sat on the Council of The 'Respect Party' oddly enough, my mother was a huge part of those groups as well, although her Faith stayed close to her and there were some very interesting conversations to had at my house

My point is that The 'Establishment' can only do so much damage, most parents don't really believe all of that stuff, even the kids find it fanciful these days, and i can honestly say that i never had it rammed down my throat, was allowed to make my own decisions on faith and participation in it, and never once felt forced or indoctrinated as you put it. I don't believe in it, and i see the wrong it creates, but i'm not unique, there's millions of people like me who weren't brainwashed just because our parent or parents decided to det us Baptised or Christened. I'm sure though that in less developed countries where the church and the state play a more significant role, that people are controlled by religion..

My comments were directed at you personally, old fruit. You know that

[cyril evans awaydays]

I'm not going to counter what you say really, i'm aware of most of what you say as i was brought up with a religious mother ( she passed away last Monday and i'm now in the process of arranging a requiem mass for her and all that goes with it) My Father was brought up even more hard lined than my Mother, he could recite a requiem mass in Latin, Bit he denounced it all in his early twenties, got involved with The International Socialists (Later The Socialist Workers Party, became a prominent member Of The ANL, A Trade Unionist and Sat on the Council of The 'Respect Party' oddly enough, my mother was a huge part of those groups as well, although her Faith stayed close to her and there were some very interesting conversations to had at my house

My point is that The 'Establishment' can only do so much damage, most parents don't really believe all of that stuff, even the kids find it fanciful these days, and i can honestly say that i never had it rammed down my throat, was allowed to make my own decisions on faith and participation in it, and never once felt forced or indoctrinated as you put it. I don't believe in it, and i see the wrong it creates, but i'm not unique, there's millions of people like me who weren't brainwashed just because our parent or parents decided to det us Baptised or Christened. I'm sure though that in less developed countries where the church and the state play a more significant role, that people are controlled by religion..

Sorry for your loss!

[JamesWales]

Sorry for your loss!

Seconded. And whilst I have mixed views on religion generally I do recognize that for those who strongly believe, it can give a lot of meaning and support in life, especially towards the end of it.

[Tuerto]

Sorry for your loss!

Appreciated Cyril

[Tuerto]

Seconded. And whilst I have mixed views on religion generally I do recognize that for those who strongly believe, it can give a lot of meaning and support in life, especially towards the end of it.

Nice on Jimbo

[Tuerto]

My comments were directed at you personally, old fruit. You know that

I know that (Weren't) And i generally agree with you on the subject of religion.

[jon1959]

Sorry for your loss!

And me - I hope you and your family are coping Tuerto.

It is difficult - and all the big questions play through your mind. I have organised my mam’s and auntie’s funerals in the last 2 years, was at my uncle’s in Llanelli this morning, and tomorrow we scatter my partner’s mum’s ashes in Coventry.

I still switch off at the god and faith stuff in the ceremonies (all had sone form of Christian service) but ministers are better at acknowledging non believers who are there to remember and celebrate a loved one.

I think we find a language and framework that works for us - and despite the differences in beliefs (or the lack of any religious belief) I have been impressed in all of the recent funerals by the way we connect and come together in a time of grief and loss.

All the best.

[Tuerto]

And me - I hope you and your family are coping Tuerto.

It is difficult - and all the big questions play through your mind. I have organised my mamÂ’s and auntieÂ’s funerals in the last 2 years, was at my uncleÂ’s in Llanelli this morning, and tomorrow we scatter my partnerÂ’s mumÂ’s ashes in Coventry.

I still switch off at the god and faith stuff in the ceremonies (all had sone form of Christian service) but ministers are better at acknowledging non believers who are there to remember and celebrate a loved one.

I think we find a language and framework that works for us - and despite the differences in beliefs (or the lack of any religious belief) I have been impressed in all of the recent funerals by the way we connect and come together in a time of grief and loss.

All the best.

Well said Jon, appreciate it. I don't believe in God, but i consider myself a soft non believer and i find it difficult going in on people who have faith or using hard language as to my reasons why i don't believe in God, i'd rather take aim at the 'Bosses' if you know what i mean....

Sounds like you've had a tough time of it lately, you have my sympathies, there's so much to think about. Cheers jon, appreciate the thoughts

[Wash DC Blue]

A lot of food for thought on this thread today.
Thanks for contributing.

I have a faith which I would classify as primarily Christian.
I was Christened Catholic and went to a regular Junior and High School.

One aspect that has always troubled me in thinking about Religion in general is the percentages of when and where you were born were likely to dictate your faith.
I tend to think that all faiths intend to lead you to god, but mainly it’s the hand of man that has written the scripture’s.

So I firmly believe that you don’t have to have a particular State of Grace, you can however use the faith that you are familiar with as a conduit.

My Wife is pretty much atheist as was her Brother that passed away earlier this year.
They would both say that they were agnostic.
The pair of them belong in heaven more than I do due to their actions alone.

I kind of look at it as my job spiritually to sponser them if you like.
Their Mother does the same.

The times they are a changing and Christianity has indeed lost a lot of its value to people…which is fine.
The New Testament was a lot less Fire and Brimstone than its predecessor, maybe we could do with an updated version, even if it’s somewhat of a moralistic guide to life (even though we know that a large percentage of those that like to take moral responsibilities are quite often immoral).

Islam could certainly do with a rebrand…it’s never going to happen though.
The new kid on the block has said so and that is that.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

A lot of food for thought on this thread today.
Thanks for contributing.

I have a faith which I would classify as primarily Christian.
I was Christened Catholic and went to a regular Junior and High School.

One aspect that has always troubled me in thinking about Religion in general is the percentages of when and where you were born were likely to dictate your faith.
I tend to think that all faiths intend to lead you to god, but mainly itÂ’s the hand of man that has written the scriptureÂ’s.

So I firmly believe that you donÂ’t have to have a particular State of Grace, you can however use the faith that you are familiar with as a conduit.

My Wife is pretty much atheist as was her Brother that passed away earlier this year.
They would both say that they were agnostic.
The pair of them belong in heaven more than I do due to their actions alone.

I kind of look at it as my job spiritually to sponser them if you like.
Their Mother does the same.

The times they are a changing and Christianity has indeed lost a lot of its value to peopleÂ…which is fine.
The New Testament was a lot less Fire and Brimstone than its predecessor, maybe we could do with an updated version, even if itÂ’s somewhat of a moralistic guide to life (even though we know that a large percentage of those that like to take moral responsibilities are quite often immoral).

Islam could certainly do with a rebrandÂ…itÂ’s never going to happen though.
The new kid on the block has said so and that is that.

You might still go to heaven , if it exists , if you spend your time being kind without worrying if its good enough for whoever you think your maker is

You dont need church or a wise priest if god floats your boat

I have an old school friend who's parents were church goers , hes jumped back on board as he hit his fifties . I am losing patience with him popping round when hes over for the weekend as within minutes of sharing a cuppa hes going on about god this , god that and his bloody bible classes

His wife isn't interested in any of it and hes so obsessed she will probably leave him eventually

I cant be dealing with any of it

I was in hospital last year for an overnight stay and got a taxi home , the Muslim taxi driver was a nice guy but even in general conversation it was obvious he was very strict to his faith

Its all nonsense to me and I really don't waste time socially these days in debating it

[Wash DC Blue]

You might still go to heaven , if it exists , if you spend your time being kind without worrying if its good enough for whoever you think your maker is

You dont need church or a wise priest if god floats your boat

I have an old school friend who's parents were church goers , hes jumped back on board as he hit his fifties . I am losing patience with him popping round when hes over for the weekend as within minutes of sharing a cuppa hes going on about god this , god that and his bloody bible classes

His wife isn't interested in any of it and hes so obsessed she will probably leave him eventually

I cant be dealing with any of it

I was in hospital last year for an overnight stay and got a taxi home , the Muslim taxi driver was a nice guy but even in general conversation it was obvious he was very strict to his faith

Its all nonsense to me and I really don't waste time socially these days in debating it

Your friend might well be making Pascal's Wager…he might not though, that’s all on him.

You are certainly steadfast in your beliefs, Sludge and nobody could accuse you of wavering.

It’s a characteristic that could belong to The Puritans. :)

[Taunton Blue Genie]

You might still go to heaven , if it exists , if you spend your time being kind without worrying if its good enough for whoever you think your maker is

I think you are suggesting possibilities within a dogma you don't believe in and which contradicts various screeds in the tome in question.

“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.” – John 3:18

"Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" - John 14:6

"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." - Hebrews 11:6

"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” - John 8:25

It goes on and on. Being a good egg just doesn't cut the mustard regarding the entry to a place where souls live on ad infintum. It's fire and brimstone for the non-believers, I'm afraid. Best you bone up on Genesis, The Book of Revelation and Deutoronomy, old fruit. Needless to say, Satan will be joining the not-so-merry throng that will include the good but non-believing types.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I know that (Weren't) And i generally agree with you on the subject of religion.

Yes, I meant weren't