Argy bargey

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Argy bargey

What are you going on about? How the hell is anything the UK has done remotely evil?

I think those are some strong rose-tinted glasses if you think the UK has never done anything that could be considered evil.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Argy bargey

I think those are some strong rose-tinted glasses if you think the UK has never done anything that could be considered evil.

He just doesn’t get it, I remember him holding his hands up in horror when it was suggested that the UK Government were ticking about eight of twelve boxes that were used in a definition of fascism. He seems to think you need a dodgy moustache and haircut and one testicle to qualify as showing fascist tendencies. Remember how the Republican demonstrators were treated on the King’s Coronation Day? Demonstrating is now banned, or it is at least if it’s about something the Government is against, but when it’s against ULEZ, like it was a few days ago, the authorities didn’t bat an eyelid.

As I said, the Government ticks a few of the boxes when it comes to fascist behaviour. In much the same way, there are different types of evil - to, apparently, believe this Government has done nothing evil strikes me as very naive. All Governments of whatever colour do things which are conspired evil by some.

[JamesWales]

Re: Argy bargey

He just doesn’t get it, I remember him holding his hands up in horror when it was suggested that the UK Government were ticking about eight of twelve boxes that were used in a definition of fascism. He seems to think you need a dodgy moustache and haircut and one testicle to qualify as showing fascist tendencies. Remember how the Republican demonstrators were treated on the King’s Coronation Day? Demonstrating is now banned, or it is at least if it’s about something the Government is against, but when it’s against ULEZ, like it was a few days ago, the authorities didn’t bat an eyelid.

As I said, the Government ticks a few of the boxes when it comes to fascist behaviour. In much the same way, there are different types of evil - to, apparently, believe this Government has done nothing evil strikes me as very naive. All Governments of whatever colour do things which are conspired evil by some.

Honestly sometimes this place seems like an alternative reality!

So I "I don't get it because I don't think we are living in some fascistic state with an evil govt?

Do you ever listen to yourself? Sounds like that character from the Young Ones.

A big clue here is that in genuine fascist states the people tend to flee from them rather than to them.

You must think these people or idiots? Or perhaps you are just being extremely hyperbolic and we aren't actually the state with fascist tendencies that you believe? Although I don't think for a second you do actually believe that anyway.

Now please tell me. What, in respect of the debate in question has the British govt done that is remotely evil?

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Argy bargey

Honestly sometimes this place seems like an alternative reality!

So I "I don't get it because I don't think we are living in some fascistic state with an evil govt?

Do you ever listen to yourself? Sounds like that character from the Young Ones.

A big clue here is that in genuine fascist states the people tend to flee from them rather than to them.

You must think these people or idiots? Or perhaps you are just being extremely hyperbolic and we aren't actually the state with fascist tendencies that you believe? Although I don't think for a second you do actually believe that anyway.

Now please tell me. What, in respect of the debate in question has the British govt done that is remotely evil?

Well off the top of my head our military relationship with Saudi is pretty evil considering what happened this week. Suella might have been taking notes on how effectively protect your borders though.

But I think the point bob is trying to make is that (forgive the cliche) it is a slippery slope.

[JamesWales]

Re: Argy bargey

Well off the top of my head our military relationship with Saudi is pretty evil considering what happened this week. Suella might have been taking notes on how effectively protect your borders though.

But I think the point bob is trying to make is that (forgive the cliche) it is a slippery slope.

I don't disagree on the arms sales issue but that is an incredibly complex industry and by definition that makes the UK govt in Iraq more evil and as Dorcus insinuated earlier, does that make anyone who supported them evil?

So again, in the context of the topic of this thread, what the hell has the govt done that is evil?

Housed and fed every last person that has landed? Given due legal process to them all? Ensured they weren't at risk of legionella?

If you think this is how fascism starts, I have a few books to lend out, cos as I will point out, people tend to flee from fascist or fascist sympathetic states not to them. So either the people are mad or using words like evil and fascist is just some culture war stuff to stir things up?

[JamesWales]

Re: Argy bargey

When I say 'you' I mean 'one' really.

[Dorcus]

Re: Argy bargey

What are you going on about? How the hell is anything the UK has done remotely evil? Honestly, sometimes!

One could equally say being cool with what is going on is supporting evil, but I don't lay that charge at your door!

How the hell is feeding, housing and caring for whomever chooses to come here 'evil'?!

Greed and selfishness are the roots of all evil. Do you really not possess even a basic idea of ethics? I think you've suffered a misspent youth.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Argy bargey

Honestly sometimes this place seems like an alternative reality!

So I "I don't get it because I don't think we are living in some fascistic state with an evil govt?

Do you ever listen to yourself? Sounds like that character from the Young Ones.

A big clue here is that in genuine fascist states the people tend to flee from them rather than to them.

You must think these people or idiots? Or perhaps you are just being extremely hyperbolic and we aren't actually the state with fascist tendencies that you believe? Although I don't think for a second you do actually believe that anyway.

Now please tell me. What, in respect of the debate in question has the British govt done that is remotely evil?

Living proof of the validity of that line about hear no evil, see no evil etc.

I knew my response would draw a self righteous rant from you, it’s what you do when someone suggests something that you don’t seem to be able to comprehend.

As Eric said, we’re clearly not living in a time of goose stepping, holocaust causing dictatorship, but, as I’ve mentioned before on here, we’re in a time when it’s become easier to see how people were taken in by fascism in the 1930s.

You ask about examples of evil, well, let’s start with the thread title. Sticking homeless people on a barge so it’s twice as full as what should be its capacity, making a point of emphasising how “basic” the accommodation will be and then ignoring advice from the medical profession that the conditions on the barge will be a health risk is a good place to start. Second, you clearly think the Rwanda policy is not evil, there are those who disagree with you. Thirdly, I cannot even begin to comprehend a mind set that orders that cartoons be painted over at a centre where refugee children are housed.

This is a Government that it’s generally accepted caused deaths with their cuts to benefits to the disabled around a decade ago, we are a country where the gap between richest and poorest has grown substantially during its time in power and where life expectancy was falling in the years before the pandemic. I took care to say that Governments of all colours do some things that could be considered evil (Blair’s line on weapons of mass destruction for example), but this lot have done more than most.

[Dorcus]

Re: Argy bargey

I don't disagree on the arms sales issue but that is an incredibly complex industry and by definition that makes the UK govt in Iraq more evil and as Dorcus insinuated earlier, does that make anyone who supported them evil?

So again, in the context of the topic of this thread, what the hell has the govt done that is evil?

Housed and fed every last person that has landed? Given due legal process to them all? Ensured they weren't at risk of legionella?

If you think this is how fascism starts, I have a few books to lend out, cos as I will point out, people tend to flee from fascist or fascist sympathetic states not to them. So either the people are mad or using words like evil and fascist is just some culture war stuff to stir things up?

By the way I entirely agree the UK government's actions involving the "dodgy dossier" was pure evil. That was instigated by a right wing religious nutjob who wished to appease his US puppet masters. Evil comes in all shapes, sizes and colours.

I opposed the policy vehemently as did most of the European political corpus.

[JamesWales]

Re: Argy bargey

Living proof of the validity of that line about hear no evil, see no evil etc.

I knew my response would draw a self righteous rant from you, it’s what you do when someone suggests something that you don’t seem to be able to comprehend.

As Eric said, we’re clearly not living in a time of goose stepping, holocaust causing dictatorship, but, as I’ve mentioned before on here, we’re in a time when it’s become easier to see how people were taken in by fascism in the 1930s.

You ask about examples of evil, well, let’s start with the thread title. Sticking homeless people on a barge so it’s twice as full as what should be its capacity, making a point of emphasising how “basic” the accommodation will be and then ignoring advice from the medical profession that the conditions on the barge will be a health risk is a good place to start. Second, you clearly think the Rwanda policy is not evil, there are those who disagree with you. Thirdly, I cannot even begin to comprehend a mind set that orders that cartoons be painted over at a centre where refugee children are housed.

This is a Government that it’s generally accepted caused deaths with their cuts to benefits to the disabled around a decade ago, we are a country where the gap between richest and poorest has grown substantially during its time in power and where life expectancy was falling in the years before the pandemic. I took care to say that Governments of all colours do some things that could be considered evil (Blair’s line on weapons of mass destruction for example), but this lot have done more than most.

Self righteous rant? Hardly. It's called defending myself and holding you to account for hysterical claims of imminent fascism, which again you don't seem to understand that if your portrayal is right then no one would be arriving here. But you arent right. The UK is not some imminent fascist state or remotely close to it. If you actually cared for such matters you would speak out against people like Sludge who in the last month has said "Tories should be scared" and "Liquidated". Pretty certain you were kinda cool with a democratic vote being overiden when it suited too, so not sure you are best places to judge. But you don't really care do you? It's about the 'threat' of fascism and how only your thinking can prevent it. No different to the clowns who claimed Corbyn was a threat of communism.

So again your example of "evil" is the UK assisting to shore, housing and feeding tens of thousands of people who want to live in this "evil" govts state? Your example of "evil" is a legionella test that meant everyone was moved off site to safer accommodation? And then you site a mural being painted over, which I agree seems unnecessary but it's not the norm to have such things at border controls anywhere. Your definition of "evil" sure is a pretty low bar.

Have you actually seen how refugees around the world live? Frequently in tented accommodation at or close to warzones where legions of soldiers are more of a concern than legionella.

You talk of accommodation as if we should have tens of thousands of warm empty flats waiting for everyone but how would that work? Do we keep them empty for years on while we wait? What about homeless people here?

Hasn't Labour committed to keeping the Bobby Stockholm? Does that make them "evil" and by definition, you too?

Or in fact is that a ridiculous, hyperbolic phrase used to try and comprehend am incredibly complex situation?

Honestly, the way you guys throw around the word fascism as if this is remotely comparable to how fascists have treated their victims, you should be ashamed.

Jewish people were not fleeing into 1930s Germany. To compare the two situations is as preposterous as claiming that acting on a legionella outbreak is evil.

Get back in the real world!

[jon1959]

Re: Argy bargey

Pretty certain you were kinda cool with a democratic vote being overiden when it suited too, so not sure you are best places to judge.

When did this happen?

[JamesWales]

Re: Argy bargey

When did this happen?

Well this quite extraordinary article was published in the Observer the first Sunday after the EU referendum encouraging people to protest against the democratic result.

I recollect quite a lot of support for casting aside and annulling that vote. Certainly here we a mainstream politician from a mainstream party in an established newspaper effectively calling for that.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2016/jun/26/second-referendum-consequences-brexit-grave

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: Argy bargey

For what it's worth, my few pennies worth.

I have previously complained about Sludge's blanket and over the top language for any one who doesn't share his outlook but it appears that this is tolerated, certainly not inhibited. Still if you call someone a dopey sod and then take umbrage that you get called a festering wart in response perhaps you should look for some skin thickening products on Amazon.

Similarly telling people to calm down before entering into angry polemics probably fits into the same box.

I think the use of the word "evil" should be saved for people like Lucy Letby or Vladimir Putin. We do seem to reach for hyperbole these days so that competent things become great passes or incredible saves.

I do think the government's actions around asylum seekers are callous and cynical though. Gesture actions aimed at appealing to its dwindling support coupled with attacks on opponents and institutions that stifle them massively trump any rational or collaborative alternatives. There are no voted in seeking collaborative participation in return policies that worked as a deterrent that pre-existed small boats when packing them off to Rwanda or telling them to f*ck off back to France grabs the headlines you want.

Under international convention, asylum seekers have a right to be housed. Providing the minimum necessary like the Bibby Stockholm also fits into the above. Taking a floating dormitory out of Italian mothballs at "warp speed" for "stop the boats week" trumped any sensible consideration or timescale of ensuring it was fit for human habitation. You make it sound like retrospectively rather than preemptively ensuring that you didn't make the occupants seriously ill or even dead was some kind of act of great compassion which shows this government's caring credentials rather than self-administered shit-show it became.

Finally compassion for the homeless and asylum seekers is not an either/or where you can trade off government inaction and failure in one area as justification for similar failures in others. Legal immigration last year, 90% of whom came from outside the EU was ten times higher than the number of asylum applications yet somehow asylum seekers are the reason why the homeless don't have a roof over their heads at night.

[JamesWales]

Re: Argy bargey

For what it's worth, my few pennies worth.

I have previously complained about Sludge's blanket and over the top language for any one who doesn't share his outlook but it appears that this is tolerated, certainly not inhibited. Still if you call someone a dopey sod and then take umbrage that you get called a festering wart in response perhaps you should look for some skin thickening products on Amazon.

Similarly telling people to calm down before entering into angry polemics probably fits into the same box.

I think the use of the word "evil" should be saved for people like Lucy Letby or Vladimir Putin. We do seem to reach for hyperbole these days so that competent things become great passes or incredible saves.

I do think the government's actions around asylum seekers are callous and cynical though. Gesture actions aimed at appealing to its dwindling support coupled with attacks on opponents and institutions that stifle them massively trump any rational or collaborative alternatives. There are no voted in seeking collaborative participation in return policies that worked as a deterrent that pre-existed small boats when packing them off to Rwanda or telling them to f*ck off back to France grabs the headlines you want.

Under international convention, asylum seekers have a right to be housed. Providing the minimum necessary like the Bibby Stockholm also fits into the above. Taking a floating dormitory out of Italian mothballs at "warp speed" for "stop the boats week" trumped any sensible consideration or timescale of ensuring it was fit for human habitation. You make it sound like retrospectively rather than preemptively ensuring that you didn't make the occupants seriously ill or even dead was some kind of act of great compassion which shows this government's caring credentials rather than self-administered shit-show it became.

Finally compassion for the homeless and asylum seekers is not an either/or where you can trade off government inaction and failure in one area as justification for similar failures in others. Legal immigration last year, 90% of whom came from outside the EU was ten times higher than the number of asylum applications yet somehow asylum seekers are the reason why the homeless don't have a roof over their heads at night.

Without being too he said she said, the insults are normally far stronger and come first from Sludge. I think some of the stuff he says is outrageous and being called a dopey sod certainly isn't comparable to putting out things on the internet that "people should be scared". But I do agree with you more generally on that point and all of us need to check ourselves sometimes.

Totally agree on use of the word evil. People will unfortunately get angry when people question their parenting of label you evil..both of which have happened in the last 24 hrs.

I think some of the rhetoric on all sides is callous but I don't think the actions are. UKs treatment of asylum seekers and expenditure on things like foreign aid, I think, trumps most countries, but as long as daft words like evil aren't used, I think it's a reasonable debate. My take is that the UK is NOT currently helping the most needy at all, and it is legitimate to object to that when it's our money being spent.

I agree, they aren't a trade off, but in practice when you have sometimes 500 people landing a day they need to be housed immediately and that does require choices of where and how.

The reality here is how unbelievably difficult this situation is, morally, practically, financially and politically. That's the issue, not evil doing.

Personally I think the system is broken. I think the asylum process is totally exploited, I think there is a finite limit to what can be done here and I think the country is playing with fire if we pretend things can carry on as they are.

[Swiss Peter]

Re: Argy bargey

Well this quite extraordinary article was published in the Observer the first Sunday after the EU referendum encouraging people to protest against the democratic result.

I recollect quite a lot of support for casting aside and annulling that vote. Certainly here we a mainstream politician from a mainstream party in an established newspaper effectively calling for that.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...s-brexit-grave

Uuurghhh. This. Again.

BS then and BS now.