20mph online petition

[TWGL1]

Re: 20mph online petition

I know it is the Daily Mail but this online article is excellent and quite funny in parts. Sums it up for me,

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...0RNFybKvRIVAhE

Summed the current situation up nicely, and alas some people will vote Labour regardless

[Dave Blue]

Re: 20mph online petition

Is that a good enough reason to vote Labour though ? It obviously has nothing to do with the actual policies put forward by each party and how they affect Wales. Labour can just carry on trashing the Welsh NHS, Welsh Business, Welsh Schools and transport. Hang on - those are the exact things that Labour supporters accuse the Tories of doing, which is why they wont vote for them - you couldn't make it ip could you.

It’s an excellent reason to vote Labour. As for the WG’s record, most observers will realise that the WG is in a UK wide financial straight jacket imposed by Westminster. Whilst WG tries to offer the services you speak of being ‘trashed’, it is not deliberate wrecking as is the Tories’ strategy from London. Your problem, as a Tory, is that people have long woken up to this and can’t be gaslighted by the likes of you.

[TWGL1]

Re: 20mph online petition

It’s an excellent reason to vote Labour. As for the WG’s record, most observers will realise that the WG is in a UK wide financial straight jacket imposed by Westminster. Whilst WG tries to offer the services you speak of being ‘trashed’, it is not deliberate wrecking as is the Tories’ strategy from London. Your problem, as a Tory, is that people have long woken up to this and can’t be gaslighted by the likes of you.

I take it you didn’t read the article then ?

The WaG, a token gesture by Westminster to keep the natives happy - a political outpost which drains the electorate of taxes.

[JamesWales]

Re: 20mph online petition

It’s an excellent reason to vote Labour. As for the WG’s record, most observers will realise that the WG is in a UK wide financial straight jacket imposed by Westminster. Whilst WG tries to offer the services you speak of being ‘trashed’, it is not deliberate wrecking as is the Tories’ strategy from London. Your problem, as a Tory, is that people have long woken up to this and can’t be gaslighted by the likes of you.

Welsh Govt press office working on a sunday? That's commendable at least!

[Dave Blue]

Re: 20mph online petition

I take it you didn’t read the article then ?

The WaG, a token gesture by Westminster to keep the natives happy - a political outpost which drains the electorate of taxes.

Read the article? I’m not taking lectures from a DM journalist 😂

[JamesWales]

Re: 20mph online petition

Read the article? I’m not taking lectures from a DM journalist 😂

Does raise some decent points mind. I mean, is there anything particular that we are doing well at here compared to other UK countries or comparable English regions?

I do like the free prescriptions. I do think our education system may be more holistic and child friendly too, esp at primary school (which is all I have any first hand experience of as a parent). I'm not sure what else we are excelling at? I'm genuinely all ears on that.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: 20mph online petition

I've just tried to find out how many road journeys are made in Wales. Data doesn't seem to exist for this, but I've found that, in 2022, the total volume of traffic on Welsh roads was 29.2 billion kms, or 18.3 billion miles.

There were 3,312 road accidents in Wales in 2022 where there were casualties. That's one accident per 5.5 million miles of driving. There were 879 accidents where there were serious casulties or fatalities, or one for every 20.8 million miles of driving.

[Rjk]

Re: 20mph online petition

I've just tried to find out how many road journeys are made in Wales. Data doesn't seem to exist for this, but I've found that, in 2022, the total volume of traffic on Welsh roads was 29.2 billion kms, or 18.3 billion miles.

There were 3,312 road accidents in Wales in 2022 where there were casualties. That's one accident per 5.5 million miles of driving. There were 879 accidents where there were serious casulties or fatalities, or one for every 20.8 million miles of driving.

or to put it another way, there are almost 10 road accidents with casualties a day, and more than 2 serious injuries or fatalities every day

[TWGL1]

Re: 20mph online petition

or to put it another way, there are almost 10 road accidents with casualties a day, and more than 2 serious injuries or fatalities every day

Tragic events, however, the implementation of the. 20mph speed limit will have almost no consequences on the safety data.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: 20mph online petition

or to put it another way, there are almost 10 road accidents with casualties a day, and more than 2 serious injuries or fatalities every day

But not all of those are on 30mph roads.

There were 1883 accidents, where there were casualties, on 20/30mph roads in 2022, with 420 of them resulting in serious casualties or fatalities. 22% of road accidents on roads that were 20/30mph in 2022 resulted in seriouss casualties or fatalities, compared with 32% on faster roads.

By way of comparing 20 and 30mph speed limit areas, 21% of accidents, where there were casualties, on 20mph roads resulted in serious casualties or fatalities, while 22% of accidents on 30mph roads resulted in serious casualties or fatalities. 20mph roads had a 1% reduction in serious casualties or fatalities, where there were casualties.

Let's guess that 1.5m motorists in Wales make 4 car journeys a day. Virtually all will be driven on 20/30mph roads at some point, so let's round that to 6m car journeys a day. That means 5,999,995 car journeys a day in 20/30 mph areas with no casualties, with 5 being unfortunate to have a car accident that involves a casualty, or 5,999,999 car journeys a day in 20/30mph areas without a serious casualty or fatality.

[Rjk]

Re: 20mph online petition

Tragic events, however, the implementation of the. 20mph speed limit will have almost no consequences on the safety data.

care to show your workings?

elsewhere it has been said they expect around 10 fewer deaths on the roads due to this reduction in speed.

if that's correct then an additional 45 seconds on the average journey is a miniscule price to pay isn't it?

[TWGL1]

Re: 20mph online petition

care to show your workings?

elsewhere it has been said they expect around 10 fewer deaths on the roads due to this reduction in speed.

if that's correct then an additional 45 seconds on the average journey is a miniscule price to pay isn't it?

The data is freely accessible and I think a poster on here gave a great analysis as well. When you consider population growth and car usage it’s negligible.

How many of those deaths are from electric vehicles whereby pedestrians and other road users failed to hear the approaching car?

You’re in a minority on this one.

[Rjk]

Re: 20mph online petition

The data is freely accessible and I think a poster on here gave a great analysis as well. When you consider population growth and car usage it’s negligible.

How many of those deaths are from electric vehicles whereby pedestrians and other road users failed to hear the approaching car?

You’re in a minority on this one.

if you have convincing data I'd love to read it.

in every other place in the world a reduction in speed results in a reduction in deaths so why would Wales be any different?

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: 20mph online petition

if you have convincing data I'd love to read it.

in every other place in the world a reduction in speed results in a reduction in deaths so why would Wales be any different?

Back to the accident data spreadsheet from 2022.

Number of accidents with casualties:

20mph speed limit area - 192
30mph speed limit area - 1691

Stands to reason - 37.4% of roads in 2021 had 30mph speed limits, 2.5% had 20mph speed limits. There were 870km of 20mph road across Wales and 13,085km of 30mph road.

Kilometers per accidents with casualties:

20mph speed limit area - 870/192 - per 4.53km
30mph speed limit area - 13085/1691 - per 7.74km

Number of accidents with casualties where those casualties were serious or fatal:

20mph speed limit area - 40 - 40/192 = 20.8%
30mph speed limit area - 380 - 380/1691 = 22.5%

Number of accidents with casualties where there were fatalities

20mph speed limit area - 40 - 2/192 = 1.0%
30mph speed limit area - 380 - 27/1691 = 1.6%

It's interesting that there was a higher proportion of accidents on 20mph roads where there were casualties, than on 30mph roads. The reduction of serious casualties and fatalities dropping from 30 to 20mph is nowhere near the levels being exaggerated.

[Rjk]

Re: 20mph online petition

Back to the accident data spreadsheet from 2022.

Number of accidents with casualties:

20mph speed limit area - 192
30mph speed limit area - 1691

Stands to reason - 37.4% of roads in 2021 had 30mph speed limits, 2.5% had 20mph speed limits. There were 870km of 20mph road across Wales and 13,085km of 30mph road.

Kilometers per accidents with casualties:

20mph speed limit area - 870/192 - per 4.53km
30mph speed limit area - 13085/1691 - per 7.74km

Number of accidents with casualties where those casualties were serious or fatal:

20mph speed limit area - 40 - 40/192 = 20.8%
30mph speed limit area - 380 - 380/1691 = 22.5%

Number of accidents with casualties where there were fatalities

20mph speed limit area - 40 - 2/192 = 1.0%
30mph speed limit area - 380 - 27/1691 = 1.6%

It's interesting that there was a higher proportion of accidents on 20mph roads where there were casualties, than on 30mph roads. The reduction of serious casualties and fatalities dropping from 30 to 20mph is nowhere near the levels being exaggerated.

that's all pretty irrelevant, the 20mph roads prior to this year might have been in areas where accidents have a higher chance of being dangerous i.e. near schools, areas with many pedestrians etc.

if you look at other countries that have adopted a similar reduction in speed there is a resulting reduction in lives lost.

if after a year it appears that something like 10 fewer lives have been lost after the introduction would people agree that it was been worth it?