20mph online petition

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: 20mph online petition

that's all pretty irrelevant, the 20mph roads prior to this year might have been in areas where accidents have a higher chance of being dangerous i.e. near schools, areas with many pedestrians etc.

if you look at other countries that have adopted a similar reduction in speed there is a resulting reduction in lives lost.

if after a year it appears that something like 10 fewer lives have been lost after the introduction would people agree that it was been worth it?

Of course 20mph roads have been implemented in areas where roads are potentially more dangerous. That's the whole point of them.

I'll counter your argument of whether inconveniencing a billion journeys a year is worth 10 lives by asking why nothing is being done on faster roads to save lives and casualties, where there, I can presume having traffic moving so people can get about is more of a priority.

[Rjk]

Re: 20mph online petition

Of course 20mph roads have been implemented in areas where roads are potentially more dangerous. That's the whole point of them.

I'll counter your argument of whether inconveniencing a billion journeys a year is worth 10 lives by asking why nothing is being done on faster roads to save lives and casualties, where there, I can presume having traffic moving so people can get about is more of a priority.

changing the faster roads will have a much bigger impact on travel times presumably. this change is pretty negligible and could save lives every year.

surely the minor inconvenience is worth it if it ultimately works

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: 20mph online petition

changing the faster roads will have a much bigger impact on travel times presumably. this change is pretty negligible and could save lives every year.

surely the minor inconvenience is worth it if it ultimately works

But for many, these changes aren't negligible. Arriva buses in North Wales are warning that routes and frequencies will be cut. I understand Adventure Travel are monitoring things in the same way. My local Hermes driver is taking an hour more per day to do his round.

Drop from 70 to 60mph adds 8.5 seconds a mile.
60 to 50 adds 12 seconds per mile.
50 to 40 - 18.
40 to 30 - 30.
30 to 20 - 1 minute.

5 miles at 20 mph instead of 30 is the same as just over 14.5 miles of 50mph instead of 70.

[TWGL1]

Re: 20mph online petition

changing the faster roads will have a much bigger impact on travel times presumably. this change is pretty negligible and could save lives every year.

surely the minor inconvenience is worth it if it ultimately works

I take it you feel just as passionate about the current situation regarding excess deaths within the UK ?

Have you looked at the data ?

We’re you not an advocate of longer lockdowns regardless of the impact on NHS waiting times etc ?

[Rjk]

Re: 20mph online petition

I take it you feel just as passionate about the current situation regarding excess deaths within the UK ?

Have you looked at the data ?

We’re you not an advocate of longer lockdowns regardless of the impact on NHS waiting times etc ?

1) the last lockdown in the UK was 3 years ago! NHS waiting times have increased long after that period due to chronic underfunding.

2) I wasn't advocating longer lockdowns at any expense, where have you plucked that from?

[TWGL1]

Re: 20mph online petition

1) the last lockdown in the UK was 3 years ago! NHS waiting times have increased long after that period due to chronic underfunding.

2) I wasn't advocating longer lockdowns at any expense, where have you plucked that from?

They NHS was cancelling operations left right and centre during lockdown, and for the umpteenth time the NHS is not underfunded. The NHS spends £5,388 once every 0.97 seconds

I’m sure you were fully behind most Dripfrauds policies during Covid , which are now coming home to roost.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: 20mph online petition

They NHS was cancelling operations left right and centre during lockdown, and for the umpteenth time the NHS is not underfunded. The NHS spends £5,388 once every 0.97 seconds

I’m sure you were fully behind most Dripfrauds policies during Covid , which are now coming home to roost.

Which policies are coming home to roost?

Also, please provide a better financial statement of NHS spending and income with an explanation of why £5,388 every second is adequate funding.

[TWGL1]

Re: 20mph online petition

Which policies are coming home to roost?

Also, please provide a better financial statement of NHS spending and income with an explanation of why £5,388 every second is adequate funding.

Why do you need a better understanding of how much the NHS spends , look it up for yourself, better still if I’m wrong present the evidence , as I can assure you it’s there or there abouts

[Rjk]

Re: 20mph online petition

Why do you need a better understanding of how much the NHS spends , look it up for yourself, better still if I’m wrong present the evidence , as I can assure you it’s there or there abouts

NHS spending has stagnated ever since the Tories have come to power when adjusted for inflation and demographics.

Screenshot_2023-10-23-16-43-23-395_com.android.chrome-edit.jpg

Screenshot_2023-10-23-16-43-23-395_com.android.chrome-edit.jpgother European countries we were spending comparable amounts to by the end of the last labour government are now significantly clear of us.

[Dave Blue]

Re: 20mph online petition

that's all pretty irrelevant, the 20mph roads prior to this year might have been in areas where accidents have a higher chance of being dangerous i.e. near schools, areas with many pedestrians etc.

if you look at other countries that have adopted a similar reduction in speed there is a resulting reduction in lives lost.

if after a year it appears that something like 10 fewer lives have been lost after the introduction would people agree that it was been worth it?

Unless it’s their own family member it appears not.

[TWGL1]

Re: 20mph online petition

NHS spending has stagnated ever since the Tories have come to power when adjusted for inflation and demographics.

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[ATTACH=CONFIG]5865[/ATTACH]other European countries we were spending comparable amounts to by the end of the last labour government are now significantly clear of us.

That’s because a huge amount of NHS services are outsourced ( lots of health and social care providers are privately owned) and before you make assumptions much of this was started under Gordon Brown and Blair.

Ultimately the NHS is the third biggest employer in the world and the spending doesn’t always include salaries. It’s not underfunded.

[jon1959]

Re: 20mph online petition

Ultimately the NHS is the third biggest employer in the world and the spending doesn’t always include salaries. It’s not underfunded.

It is underfunded - even if you, the Spectator and the Conservative Government insist it isn't. Mind you the last two still claim £350m p.w. was freed up after leaving the EU to fund the NHS, and that Boris Johnson wasn't lying when he claimed there were 40 new hospitals in the pipeline!

Funding hasn't kept pace with demand since the Austerity Cult took power in 2010. There is an ageing population putting greater pressure on the NHS, growing waiting lists, a massive recruitment and retention crisis (made worse by Brexit) and degrading hospital infrastructure. Added to that social care is in the biggest crisis ever (ignored by the Tories and now also by Labour after Starmer's latest U turn) and ading to the NHS's problems.

https://nhsfunding.info/nhs-crisis-making/

https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/funding/health-funding-data-analysis

[JamesWales]

Re: 20mph online petition

I think the problem with a discussion solely about funding (which as we see above is always a proxy for party political debate) is that it ignores other factors.

An ex of mine and a few friends work in the NHS. Whilst they will always say money is a factor (when isn't it, in any sector? The US military will say they are underfunded too) The issue that always seems to be raised most is very poor management.

Can't ignore strikes in the last year either. Which is of course linked to funding.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: 20mph online petition

Unless it’s their own family member it appears not.

Such a crass comment deserves a reply, so here goes.

I acknowledge that roads are dangerous places. Even at 20mph. Accidents and casualties occur in car parks. Making roads safe havens for everyone is a zenith that will never be reached while motor vehicles exist. My first driving instructor told me on my first lesson that I was going to be using a machine that is one of the most dangerous ever invented.

I'm lucky that I've never been involved in an accident. I reckon even those who consider themselves the safest of drivers have had a few big scares. I had one a few years ago in Tonypandy, where some cockwomble walked out into the road without looking where he was going, headphones on, and an emergency stop when I was doing around 25mph meant I just avoided him. If I'd been doing 30 he'd have been knocked over. Yes, that would have had an effect on me, but it would have been his fault.

I've recently thought about what would happen if my 10 year old son had been run over; if he'd been seriously injured for life or killed. If it had been a case of him not being careful then these things, however tragic, happen. People make decisions that prove to be fatal in so many walks of life. If it had been a case that someone had been driving dangerously then that's a totally different matter.

One common theme I saw when looking up some of the accidents where there were fatalities or serious casualties, was that dangerous driving was often a factor. This evening, I approached a junction, wanting to turn left, while someone coming from my left, turning right into the road I was in, cut the corner and nearly hit me. Not my fault at all.

Changing from 30mph to 20mph isn't going to stop dickheads who drive dangerously. If anything, it's making some drive and demonstrate more dangerous manouevers instead of being stuck behind someone driving slowly. I've seen drivers hurrying to overtake someone doing 50mph on a 60mph road. A change of speed limit isn't going to force a rethink.

There's been talk of deaths and thousands of casualties being prevented. I wonder how many accidents where there are casualties are genuine accidents, or whether most of them are due to one driver being a bit of an arsehole? I notice that quite a lot of accidents where there are casualties happen at night, or early morning, when it is dark.

I posted some stats about casualties in 20mph zones and 30mph zones. The figures were almost negligible.

I fully endorse 20mph speed limits in built up areas, around schools, play areas etc. What I don't support is 20mph zones on roads where there is absolutely no rhyme nor reason for it. Apparently the main road through Radyr is seen by locals as more dangerous since the speed limit was reduced.

[Doucas]

Re: 20mph online petition

The same people who froth at the mouth at climate protestors who block the road for trying to save the planet are now blocking the road because of the 20mph limit.

In the North Wales protest I've just read that apparently there's only 3 cars! Looking at photos of the protests down south today it looks like it's only people aged 55 or above, weird that.