Hitler.

[stevo]

Re: Hitler.

These shouts of antisemitism are getting tiresome.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Hitler.

Putin is not a Hitler (although he is a murderous authoritarian Russian nationalist); Netanyahu is not a fascist (unlike some of his government, he is 'just' a murderous, authoritarian Jewish nationalist). Both are 'little shits' though to use Bill's expression.

But it is blind ignorance to claim that Hitler's ideology died with him and his party. There are plenty of modern Nazis and neo-Nazis (a description that LOM always chokes on for some reason). But they do not hold major governmental power, or have the ability to carry out atrocities on the scale of the Nazis. There are many admirers of Hitler in the world today and the ideology that shaped the Nazis. In my opinion the rise of right wing populism (it is different on the left) feeds that and has many echoes of 1920s/30s Europe.

But legitimate comparisons with the ideas and actions of people in the past help us to understand what is happening today. I think some features of the regimes in Russia, in Israel and in other countries mirror those in Nazi Germany - but there are also major differences.

Under the 'new anti semitism' (the one where any criticism of Israel or Zionism - including from Jewish people - is now labelled anti semitic) that cannot be said and you end up with newspeak and the pathetic slurs that people like LOM throw out. When one of the board's most consistent racists (and misogynists) calls others racist you know it is time to turn the irony meter to max.

On the 'most murderous leader' in history I expect Stalin is up there, maybe with Mao or Genghis Khan? But I expect Queen Victoria has been given a free pass?

Churchill

[JamesWales]

Re: Hitler.

Churchill

Close, but he's the one who stopped Hitler.

[JamesWales]

Re: Hitler.

Putin is not a Hitler (although he is a murderous authoritarian Russian nationalist); Netanyahu is not a fascist (unlike some of his government, he is 'just' a murderous, authoritarian Jewish nationalist). Both are 'little shits' though to use Bill's expression.

But it is blind ignorance to claim that Hitler's ideology died with him and his party. There are plenty of modern Nazis and neo-Nazis (a description that LOM always chokes on for some reason). But they do not hold major governmental power, or have the ability to carry out atrocities on the scale of the Nazis. There are many admirers of Hitler in the world today and the ideology that shaped the Nazis. In my opinion the rise of right wing populism (it is different on the left) feeds that and has many echoes of 1920s/30s Europe.

But legitimate comparisons with the ideas and actions of people in the past help us to understand what is happening today. I think some features of the regimes in Russia, in Israel and in other countries mirror those in Nazi Germany - but there are also major differences.

Under the 'new anti semitism' (the one where any criticism of Israel or Zionism - including from Jewish people - is now labelled anti semitic) that cannot be said and you end up with newspeak and the pathetic slurs that people like LOM throw out. When one of the board's most consistent racists (and misogynists) calls others racist you know it is time to turn the irony meter to max.

On the 'most murderous leader' in history I expect Stalin is up there, maybe with Mao or Genghis Khan? But I expect Queen Victoria has been given a free pass?

1 - Mao
2 - Stalin

Of course, Nazism didn't die with Hitler, that is a different argument, but I do think the comparisons to the man himself are absolutely overblown.

It's a bit like comparing every decent footballer to Pele or Maradona.

[jon1959]

Re: Hitler.

It's a bit like comparing every decent footballer to Pele or Maradona.

For some reason Pirlo is used as a comparison more than any other footballer. (Joe Bloggs, the Forest Green Pirlo!)

I have no hard statistics for that but I'm sure it's true.

[JamesWales]

Re: Hitler.

For some reason Pirlo is used as a comparison more than any other footballer. (Joe Bloggs, the Forest Green Pirlo!)

I have no hard statistics for that but I'm sure it's true.

Pirlo Pot, the Cambodian tyrant.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Hitler.

Close, but he's the one who stopped Hitler.

My grandfather and many others stopped Hitler

[Hilts]

Re: Hitler.

Close, but he's the one who stopped Hitler.

🤣

[Hilts]

Re: Hitler.

My grandfather and many others stopped Hitler

👍

[JamesWales]

Re: Hitler.

My grandfather and many others stopped Hitler

Of course. But they had a leader.

[Rjk]

Re: Hitler.

My grandfather and many others stopped Hitler

Was he Russian?

[Rjk]

Re: Hitler.

1 - Mao
2 - Stalin

Of course, Nazism didn't die with Hitler, that is a different argument, but I do think the comparisons to the man himself are absolutely overblown.

It's a bit like comparing every decent footballer to Pele or Maradona.

Mao's an interesting one, he's still viewed largely favourably in China - still on their money, and most Chinese will say that he did more right than wrong.

On the other hand a LOT of people were killed. A very lot.
The numbers usually include the millions who died in the great famine (like 30-50 million I think), which while undoubtedly a direct result of the changes that were made as part of the "great leap forward" and being taken in by the charlatan Lysenko, it is difficult to know whether Mao was actually aware of the famine or the extent of it, as all the regions still were reporting grain surpluses for fear of being reprimanded.
So definitely their fault, but how can you compare that to sending 6 million people to be executed in gas chambers?

China's whole history is ridiculously brutal. The death toll in their conflicts, genocides and uprisings make most European conflicts look like a walk in the palk (untl the 20th C)

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Hitler.

Was he Russian?

No but nor was the weather that froze the German army in stalingrad

[fingers]

Re: Hitler.

1 Mao 49-78 million deaths
2 Stalin 23 million
3 Hitler 17 million
4 Leopold II of Belgium 15million
5 Hideki Tojo 5 million
6 Ismail Enver Pasha 2.5 million
7 Pol Pot 1.7million
8 Kim Il Sung 1.6 million
9 Mengistu Haile Mariam 1.5 million
10 Yakubu Gowon 1.1 million

[jon1959]

Re: Hitler.

1 Mao 49-78 million deaths
2 Stalin 23 million
3 Hitler 17 million
4 Leopold II of Belgium 15million
5 Hideki Tojo 5 million
6 Ismail Enver Pasha 2.5 million
7 Pol Pot 1.7million
8 Kim Il Sung 1.6 million
9 Mengistu Haile Mariam 1.5 million
10 Yakubu Gowon 1.1 million

In the last 40 years of Queen Victoria's rule there were tens of millions of deaths from man made (trade policy led) famines in India. The numbers are disputed and sometimes the timeframe slips to 1880-1920, but I am confident that over 15 million Indians (that is pre-partition India - The Raj) died of starvation and disease directly caused by the actions of imperial administrators. That is from one part of the British Empire over just a few decades.