Hitler.

[jeepster]

Re: Hitler.

If you haven't already I recommend you read the book "Who moved the stone" by Frank Morison. A non-Christian, he examined every facet of the cruxifixion and resurrection* of Jesus and found that all the alternative explanations are less plausible than Jesus rose from the dead.

*Including the theories that the guards fell asleep and body was stolen by the disciples, plus a whole lot more.

Burke & Hare?

[jon1959]

Re: Hitler.

Burke & Hare?

Don’t be daft jeepster. Clearly this is a case of the corpses rising from the dead and shuffling off to the surgeons slabs, where they had a little think and decided to expire after all.

Any other explanation is so improbable it is really impossible!

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Hitler.

Don’t be daft jeepster. Clearly this is a case of the corpses rising from the dead and shuffling off to the surgeons slabs, where they had a little think and decided to expire after all.

Any other explanation is so improbable it is really impossible!

I challenge you both to read the book and then come back and debate its findings with me.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Hitler.

If you haven't already I recommend you read the book "Who moved the stone" by Frank Morison. A non-Christian, he examined every facet of the cruxifixion and resurrection* of Jesus and found that all the alternative explanations are less plausible than Jesus rose from the dead.

*Including the theories that the guards fell asleep and body was stolen by the disciples, plus a whole lot more.

I think the problem here is two fold

We are talking about events as if they are facts that are alleged to have happened 2000 plus years ago

Huge alarm bells

Then we have someone who is a non Christian.....yeah right ... coming to the conclusion that Jesus rising from the dead is more likely than some of Jesus's mates taking his body away

If I was listening to someone telling me this I would think he's either having a laugh and a joke ,hes a conman and must think I am stupid or he needs to be talking to a psychiatrist

It's a load of nonsense

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Hitler.

I challenge you both to read the book and then come back and debate its findings with me.

I don't have to read the autobiography of David ike to realise he's off his cake

He's deluded

And if this book you quote is saying that Jesus waking from the dead is more likely than Jesus in a dead state being taken away then the author is a conman or completely mad or both

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

Re: Hitler.

If you haven't already I recommend you read the book "Who moved the stone" by Frank Morison. A non-Christian, he examined every facet of the cruxifixion and resurrection* of Jesus and found that all the alternative explanations are less plausible than Jesus rose from the dead.

*Including the theories that the guards fell asleep and body was stolen by the disciples, plus a whole lot more.

I haven't read that book and I'm not likely to. I'm up to my eyes writing up my doctoral thesis. It's on the interwar era in South Wales. As an historian I know that historical "evidence" is a. rarely, if ever, objective and b. often not accurate. Your claim that this book examines "every facet" of the events is a bit daft. No offence intended. My own research has brought to light new evidence (acknowledging the caveats I've mentioned above) which calls into question some well-established views on historical events in interwar Wales. Any study which claims to offer the definitive account of anything should be treated with extreme caution. We are constantly revising our views on historical events in the light of new research. Otherwise there would be no point in historians bothering to do new research. Your view is clearly different, but personally I would be especially sceptical about any research which found that the most likely explanation for the events it describes is dead matter being brought back to life. I'm not going to pursue this matter with you. If you think I'm wrong or afraid to debate it then that's fine. It's simply that I find the whole thing ludicrous, it holds very limited interest for me and I have, what to me, are more important things to do with my time.

[Hilts]

Re: Hitler.

I challenge you both to read the book and then come back and debate its findings with me.

I havent read this 100 year old book. But Morrison I believe was a church goer and from what I can gather is virtually all his evidence is from the gospels.

Also isnt it the resurrection hes specifcally looking at?

Doesnt he almost immediately into this book describe those who deny the historical existence of Jesus as an absurd cult.?

[truthpaste]

Re: Hitler.

I haven't read that book and I'm not likely to. I'm up to my eyes writing up my doctoral thesis. It's on the interwar era in South Wales. As an historian I know that historical "evidence" is a. rarely, if ever, objective and b. often not accurate. Your claim that this book examines "every facet" of the events is a bit daft. No offence intended. My own research has brought to light new evidence (acknowledging the caveats I've mentioned above) which calls into question some well-established views on historical events in interwar Wales. Any study which claims to offer the definitive account of anything should be treated with extreme caution. We are constantly revising our views on historical events in the light of new research. Otherwise there would be no point in historians bothering to do new research. Your view is clearly different, but personally I would be especially sceptical about any research which found that the most likely explanation for the events it describes is dead matter being brought back to life. I'm not going to pursue this matter with you. If you think I'm wrong or afraid to debate it then that's fine. It's simply that I find the whole thing ludicrous, it holds very limited interest for me and I have, what to me, are more important things to do with my time.

When you declare that if the evidence leads to Christ's resurrection being a fact of history then your skepticism will kick in, then this means you are creating a fresh set of rules for the way you view science and history simply to maintain your world view.
Your denial is certainly more sophisticated than many others here, but in the end it is still denial and an unwillingness to honestly engage the evidence head on.

I'm sure Gofer would agree that this is the most important issue (who Christ actually is) anyone will consider at any point in their earthly life.

[truthpaste]

Re: Hitler.

I haven't read that book and I'm not likely to. I'm up to my eyes writing up my doctoral thesis. It's on the interwar era in South Wales. As an historian I know that historical "evidence" is a. rarely, if ever, objective and b. often not accurate. Your claim that this book examines "every facet" of the events is a bit daft. No offence intended. My own research has brought to light new evidence (acknowledging the caveats I've mentioned above) which calls into question some well-established views on historical events in interwar Wales. Any study which claims to offer the definitive account of anything should be treated with extreme caution. We are constantly revising our views on historical events in the light of new research. Otherwise there would be no point in historians bothering to do new research. Your view is clearly different, but personally I would be especially sceptical about any research which found that the most likely explanation for the events it describes is dead matter being brought back to life. I'm not going to pursue this matter with you. If you think I'm wrong or afraid to debate it then that's fine. It's simply that I find the whole thing ludicrous, it holds very limited interest for me and I have, what to me, are more important things to do with my time.

When you declare that if the evidence leads to Christ's resurrection being a fact of history then your skepticism will kick in, then this means [in this case] you are creating a fresh set of rules for the way you view science and history simply to maintain your world view.
Your denial is certainly more sophisticated than many others here, but in the end it is still denial and an unwillingness to honestly engage the evidence head on.

I'm sure Gofer would agree that this is the most important issue (who Christ actually is) that anyone will consider at any point in their earthly life; as it will impact their eternal destiny.

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Hitler.

I haven't read that book and I'm not likely to. I'm up to my eyes writing up my doctoral thesis. It's on the interwar era in South Wales. As an historian I know that historical "evidence" is a. rarely, if ever, objective and b. often not accurate. Your claim that this book examines "every facet" of the events is a bit daft. No offence intended. My own research has brought to light new evidence (acknowledging the caveats I've mentioned above) which calls into question some well-established views on historical events in interwar Wales. Any study which claims to offer the definitive account of anything should be treated with extreme caution. We are constantly revising our views on historical events in the light of new research. Otherwise there would be no point in historians bothering to do new research. Your view is clearly different, but personally I would be especially sceptical about any research which found that the most likely explanation for the events it describes is dead matter being brought back to life. I'm not going to pursue this matter with you. If you think I'm wrong or afraid to debate it then that's fine. It's simply that I find the whole thing ludicrous, it holds very limited interest for me and I have, what to me, are more important things to do with my time.

I don't disagree, but I am not aware of any new evidence that has emerged that has undermined Morison's work which he wrote nearly 100 years ago, so plenty of time for that to happen.

Like you I found the whole subject ludicrous until I read Morison's very reasoned arguments and proved, at least to me, that the resurrection did, beyond reasonable doubt, occur.

Whether you want to debate it or not is your choice – I can't say I don't care because that would be incorrect. Like you I was too busy getting on with my life to be bothered to look into the claims of Christianity but I feel sure there will come a time when something will prompt you to investigate what are essentially outrageous claims!

Re your thesis – an interesting topic! I have only some limited knowledge of that period from talking with my Dad. He was born in 1913 and grew up in Mountain Ash, so he experienced first hand those inter-war years in the Valleys. His father was a coal miner who was killed in a pit roof fall in 1933. Sadly my Dad died nearly 30 years ago and how I wish I had asked him more questions about those days! Good luck with the thesis.

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Hitler.

I havent read this 100 year old book. But Morrison I believe was a church goer and from what I can gather is virtually all his evidence is from the gospels.

Also isnt it the resurrection hes specifcally looking at?

Doesnt he almost immediately into this book describe those who deny the historical existence of Jesus as an absurd cult.?

The book was written in 1930 so yes, nearly 100 years ago but of what significance that is I don't follow. Has some later evidence come to light that disproves what he has written?

He was a church-goer I believe, but that doesn't mean he was a Christian of course! It seems he was a sceptic just as I was before I read his book. I was a church-goer too until my mid teens when I got into science and dismissed Christianity for the next 25 years or so. Most of his evidence is from the gospels but he does also refer to Jewish texts and archeological evidence.

Yes the book is all about the resurrection because this is the crux of the Christian faith – no resurrection, no Christianity. End of.

I can't recall that he describes those who deny the historical existence of Jesus as an absurd cult because it was many years ago that I read the book (approx 40 years!). I would have to dig it out and check that for myself I guess. I don't suppose you have a reference to whereabouts in the book it is? BTW where did you read that if you haven't read the book? It does seem rather extreme language, however you will find that most historians accept that there was an historical Jesus.

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Hitler.

I'm sure Gofer would agree that this is the most important issue (who Christ actually is) that anyone will consider at any point in their earthly life; as it will impact their eternal destiny.

I agree. See also my reply to Robin Friday's Ghost repsonse.

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

Re: Hitler.

I don't disagree, but I am not aware of any new evidence that has emerged that has undermined Morison's work which he wrote nearly 100 years ago, so plenty of time for that to happen.

Like you I found the whole subject ludicrous until I read Morison's very reasoned arguments and proved, at least to me, that the resurrection did, beyond reasonable doubt, occur.

Whether you want to debate it or not is your choice – I can't say I don't care because that would be incorrect. Like you I was too busy getting on with my life to be bothered to look into the claims of Christianity but I feel sure there will come a time when something will prompt you to investigate what are essentially outrageous claims!

Re your thesis – an interesting topic! I have only some limited knowledge of that period from talking with my Dad. He was born in 1913 and grew up in Mountain Ash, so he experienced first hand those inter-war years in the Valleys. His father was a coal miner who was killed in a pit roof fall in 1933. Sadly my Dad died nearly 30 years ago and how I wish I had asked him more questions about those days! Good luck with the thesis.

Thank you. Yes it is fascinating. Mine focuses upon the Ebbw Fach valley - Abertillery area - where I was born and lived until a few years ago. My dad was a miner and a local councillor. He would have been a mine of info (no pun intended) but he died when I was quite young. His and your dad's generation were very special and deserve to be honoured.

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Hitler.

Thank you. Yes it is fascinating. Mine focuses upon the Ebbw Fach valley - Abertillery area - where I was born and lived until a few years ago. My dad was a miner and a local councillor. He would have been a mine of info (no pun intended) but he died when I was quite young. His and your dad's generation were very special and deserve to be honoured.

OK! I guess it is pretty odds-on that any man of working age in the Valleys during that period was a coal miner! My ancestors came from Wiltshire (agricultural labourers) and Devon (copper miners) in the 1850's when the Valleys were like the Klondyke i.e. for coal rather than gold.

Dad was the youngest of four brothers and the two oldest became miners. He and his next oldest brother “got on their bikes” (literally) and set off for a new life. WW2 intervened and, as for countless others, it changed the course of my Dad's life completely.

He eventually came back to Mountain Ash but it's a very long story which I am in the (very slow) process of writing up in the form of a biography of my Dad. This is primarily for my grandchildren who never knew my Dad and know nothing of life in the Valleys.

I know most people think their Dad is a hero, but as you say these particular men were special. They grew up in relative poverty, endured the General Strike and then WW2. I know I couldn't hold a candle to them!

My dream is to write a novel about our ancestors along the lines of “How green was my valley” but rather less sentimental I think. It would make a good TV serial too. Sadly time is running out for me so I doubt it'll ever materialise!

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

Re: Hitler.

OK! I guess it is pretty odds-on that any man of working age in the Valleys during that period was a coal miner! My ancestors came from Wiltshire (agricultural labourers) and Devon (copper miners) in the 1850's when the Valleys were like the Klondyke i.e. for coal rather than gold.

Dad was the youngest of four brothers and the two oldest became miners. He and his next oldest brother “got on their bikes” (literally) and set off for a new life. WW2 intervened and, as for countless others, it changed the course of my Dad's life completely.

He eventually came back to Mountain Ash but it's a very long story which I am in the (very slow) process of writing up in the form of a biography of my Dad. This is primarily for my grandchildren who never knew my Dad and know nothing of life in the Valleys.

I know most people think their Dad is a hero, but as you say these particular men were special. They grew up in relative poverty, endured the General Strike and then WW2. I know I couldn't hold a candle to them!

My dream is to write a novel about our ancestors along the lines of “How green was my valley” but rather less sentimental I think. It would make a good TV serial too. Sadly time is running out for me so I doubt it'll ever materialise!

My brother lives in the States and over there they call them the Greatest Generation. My uncle died in WW2 and is buried in Padua cemetery in Italy. I've been there to visit his grave. It's beautifully maintained and very peaceful. My cousin (who was in the armed services) and I put together a dossier of his life including his time at war. He was actually captured twice and was eventually injured by US friendly fire and died of gangrene later. We even have letters from the Italian nurse who looked after him.
I became interested in the interwar era after becoming friends in my early 20s with an old chap who was a lifelong communist and had been active in the political struggles of that time. An incredible man among many incredible men and women.
I hope you get to write your story. There is never a better time than now.