Amsterdam Violence

[Dorcus]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

I don't dispute that!

As ive said on here several times I'm talking about what happened in Amsterdam.

And as I've said many more times on here I'm talking about the situation in the round. You can't talk about one without the other and really the events in Amsterdam were so trivial compared to those in Gaza they should really be beneath our consideration.

[JamesWales]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

So are we

Never mind your anti Semitic rubbish

Video footage.....

I don't think you are.

I watched the video. It was in Owen Jones usual style of Razer like focusing on what he wanted to and ignoring anything else

The video seems to have shown something differ nt to how a media outlet initially reported it. That feeds into the general conclusions from the authorities which overwhelmingly conclude serious antisemitic incidents occured.

Why can't you accept that?

[Dorcus]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

To be fair to JW he's all over the shop and doesn't know who is attacking who here

I can forgive him but the major of Amsterdam?

Having said that he is very right wing so , for now , will side with Israel .....but in time who knows ?

I think he's afraid if he ever conceded his deeply troubling right wing agenda he'd lose the will to live. 😱

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

Thugs burning flags, beating up a taxi driver and chanting horrible slogans about dead innocent children is a situation which is very likely to inflame tensions. You can call it anti-Semitism if it fits more snugly with your agenda but some of us see it as the retaliatory demonstration of repugnance at crass misbehaviour.

Having read the report I have a different take.

The events chronicled don't fit with James's assertion that antisemitism occured alongside other disorder. It was clear that the first acts of provocation, violence and intimidation were perpetrated by the Maccabi fans, particularly targetting taxis and taxi drivers (who were likely to have been from Muslim communities).

What followed, according to the report, was retaliation for the attacks and damages to taxis, some of this co-ordinated.

The following day, according to the reports, social media posts encouraging retaliation included antI-semetic sentiments. Even then groups of Maccabi fans were using batons and poles to attack others. Presumably this was why 10 of those arrested were Israeli citizens.

However, sometime in the evening, people began being targetted randomly by people seeking out Jews. It's difficult to call this anything other than anti-semetic, regardless of the events that preceeded it.

[Dorcus]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

I don't think you are.

I watched the video. It was in Owen Jones usual style of Razer like focusing on what he wanted to and ignoring anything else

The video seems to have shown something differ nt to how a media outlet initially reported it. That feeds into the general conclusions from the authorities which overwhelmingly conclude serious antisemitic incidents occured.

Why can't you accept that?

It was Owen Jones focussing on the truth. Why do you fear it so much?

[JamesWales]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

I think he's afraid if he ever conceded his deeply troubling right wing agenda he'd lose the will to live. 😱

Again. Nothing says right-wing agenda like agreeing with the green-left mayor of Amsterdam does it.

I think we are going around in circles here! I shall leave you and Sludge to your strange conspiracy theory.

Just make sure you send the video ("the video the video!!!") to the Dutch parliament so that they can be as in the know as you guys!

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

To be fair to JW he's all over the shop and doesn't know who is attacking who here

I can forgive him but the major of Amsterdam?

Having said that he is very right wing so , for now , will side with Israel .....but in time who knows ?

The Mayor of Amsterdam is a she and she is not right wing. You may be confusing her with the Dutch PM!

[Dorcus]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

Having read the report I have a different take.

The events chronicled don't fit with James's assertion that antisemitism occured alongside other disorder. It was clear that the first acts of provocation, violence and intimidation were perpetrated by the Maccabi fans, particularly targetting taxis and taxi drivers (who were likely to have been from Muslim communities).

What followed, according to the report, was retaliation for the attacks and damages to taxis, some of this co-ordinated.

The following day, according to the reports, social media posts encouraging retaliation included antI-semetic sentiments. Even then groups of Maccabi fans were using batons and poles to attack others. Presumably this was why 10 of those arrested were Israeli citizens.

However, sometime in the evening, people began being targetted randomly by people seeking out Jews. It's difficult to call this anything other than anti-semetic, regardless of the events that preceeded it.

I don't doubt there was an anti-Jewish element to it, just as there was an anti-Arab element and any attack on innocent parties is to be overwhelming condemned. But given the horrors perpetrated in Gaza as we speak is it not understandable some people who identify with the victims become enraged? If this match had been played before the 7th October events I doubt there would be such high instances of anti-Jewish feeling but of course there would always be some

[Dorcus]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

Again. Nothing says right-wing agenda like agreeing with the green-left mayor of Amsterdam does it.

I think we are going around in circles here! I shall leave you and Sludge to your strange conspiracy theory.

Just make sure you send the video ("the video the video!!!") to the Dutch parliament so that they can be as in the know as you guys!

There's no strange conspiracy theory just your strange perversion of facts

[JamesWales]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

Having read the report I have a different take.

The events chronicled don't fit with James's assertion that antisemitism occured alongside other disorder. It was clear that the first acts of provocation, violence and intimidation were perpetrated by the Maccabi fans, particularly targetting taxis and taxi drivers (who were likely to have been from Muslim communities).

What followed, according to the report, was retaliation for the attacks and damages to taxis, some of this co-ordinated.

The following day, according to the reports, social media posts encouraging retaliation included antI-semetic sentiments. Even then groups of Maccabi fans were using batons and poles to attack others. Presumably this was why 10 of those arrested were Israeli citizens.

However, sometime in the evening, people began being targetted randomly by people seeking out Jews. It's difficult to call this anything other than anti-semetic, regardless of the events that preceeded it.

Just as a point of order Cyril. I do not dispute the starting points at all. I have said (see my second post at the start) that Maccabi fans likely started it.

My issue has always been to back up the reports of what followed 👍

Anyway, I am checking out of this discussion now as we are just going round in circles.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

Just as a point of order Cyril. I do not dispute the starting points at all. I have said (see my second post at the start) that Maccabi fans likely started it.

My issue has always been to back up the reports of what followed ��

Anyway, I am checking out of this discussion now as we are just going round in circles.

No problem. I'll just put down your use of the word alongside, rather than after as clumsy use of language!

[jon1959]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

Why is the mayor of Amsterdam and the Dutch PM lying then?

Both of them, along with the Dutch monarch, Joe Biden, Ursula von der Leyen, Bibi Netanyahu and a host of other political leaders and news outlets promoted a story of pre-meditated anti semitic attacks on innocent Israeli fans, and littered their accounts with words like 'pogrom' and referenced the anniversary of Kristallnacht as making events even worse. Almost all of them repeated and amplified the Israeli playbook of exceptionalism and victimhood, and in many cases mixed in a large dose of Islamophobia.

As THE account of what happened it was a lie - and in my opinion it was done deliberately and not out of ignorance. It had a clear political purpose. That is why they were (and are) lying.

The Amsterdam police from the beginning were telling a more complex story.

Since then the mayor of Amsterdam has rowed back, as have a number of news outlets (including the BBC). Almost no other politician - certainly not Biden, van der Leyen, or the far right Dutch Prime Minister - have corrected their initial statements. None of them have denounced the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans for their racist acts and chants, or for starting the violence.

None of us know all the facts and never will. We don't know whether 10% of the Maccabi fans were guilty or 90%. We don't know whether a handful of Dutch people on the streets and on social media were using racist slurs and targeting Jews for being Jews (rather than for being racist thugs who trashed their city) or whether it was widespread. Clearly the incidents were serious - more than normal football hooliganism and its reaction - and there were clear examples of anti semitism.

But the international response to the incidents in Amsterdam were and still are the distortions, misrepresentations, partisan views and downright lies that were peddled in the immediate aftermath, and for the most part are still out there uncorrected. Job done?

Are you seriously asking 'why do politicians lie'?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

I don't think you are.

I watched the video. It was in Owen Jones usual style of Razer like focusing on what he wanted to and ignoring anything else

The video seems to have shown something differ nt to how a media outlet initially reported it. That feeds into the general conclusions from the authorities which overwhelmingly conclude serious antisemitic incidents occured.

Why can't you accept that?

No , not that video although even I find Owen Jones a bit drab

The video I have 3 times asked you to view

The video by NM news , by two journalists , one of them ash shanker

That video .....its precis at the end

Watch that and have your excuses or piss off

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

The Mayor of Amsterdam is a she and she is not right wing. You may be confusing her with the Dutch PM!

Easy to do

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

Again. Nothing says right-wing agenda like agreeing with the green-left mayor of Amsterdam does it.

I think we are going around in circles here! I shall leave you and Sludge to your strange conspiracy theory.

Just make sure you send the video ("the video the video!!!") to the Dutch parliament so that they can be as in the know as you guys!

You havnt watched the video then

The one bob posted

Two journalists

No Owen Jones

That one

Watch that one

It's like pulling teeth fair play