Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

[City123]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

Left wing politics is certainly not dead.
Just fractured
This result cannot be seen as a rejecton of left wing policies, as which of those has Starmer been pushing recently?

The main political issues I think are still Brexit and the pandemic.

Polls have also shown that left wing policies such as nationalisation are consistently popular across the UK, so the idea that left wing politics is dead is just clear nonsense. It would also ignore the 12.8m people who voted for Labour in 2017 and the 10.2m who voted in 2019 (more than voted for them in 2005, 2010 and 2015)

[xsnaggle]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

it was a berefaced lie, they knew it at the time, but they knew there would be no consequence of making it. Can you give an example of a lie from the other side of the campaign?

How can you state categorically that it was a lie when no one has yet had to prove it one way or the other.?
Until the end of the transition period which was about 5 months ago we were still paying into the EU. You talk as if we haven't done so for years . JOHNSON has said the NHS will get whatever money it needs to put things in order . I recall a figure of £1 billion being mentioned. That will be 3 years of 350 million . If and when it doesn't get it then we can say it was a lie but not yet. Don't make things up and try to sell them as fact.... again

[Rjk]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

How can you state categorically that it was a lie when no one has yet had to prove it one way or the other.?
Until the end of the transition period which was about 5 months ago we were still paying into the EU. You talk as if we haven't done so for years . JOHNSON has said the NHS will get whatever money it needs to put things in order . I recall a figure of £1 billion being mentioned. That will be 3 years of 350 million . If and when it doesn't get it then we can say it was a lie but not yet. Don't make things up and try to sell them as fact.... again

I can state categorically that it was a lie because we've never paid the EU £350 million a week.
that figure doesn't include the "rebate" which was taken off before we paid it.
without that I think it was at most 250 million.


aside from that,
it also doesn't include the EU funds being spent in the UK, which brings the net spend down to I think just over 150.

and it also doesn't include the impact on the economy of leaving the EU, which is very likely to have a much bigger effect on the public piece than the cost of membership

[dml1954]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

Er, that's why I said "with our voting system, that always happens no matter who wins". Also, with only ten million out of forty seven million eligible votes, Labour would have loved to have got more than thirty per cent of it but it was the what's in it for me party who had "almost 70 per cent" not voting for them.

Dont get your argument. Conservatives got over 42% of vote in 2019, so 58% didn’t vote for them. Labour got over 32% of vote, so 68% didn't vote for them. What does that prove, apart from more people didn't vote for Labour than didn't vote for Conservatives.

[xsnaggle]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

Blaming Corbyn for this is genuinely incredible. They won the seat twice under his leadership, with 2017 seeing them up 17% on 2015 while their 2019 result was still better than 2015, this is on Starmer.

I agree it is incredible but that's what one side of the labour party is saying this morning and the other faction is saying the exact opposite.
And they're doing it in public AGAIN!! That is just close party suicide

[surge]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

Blaming Corbyn for this is genuinely incredible. They won the seat twice under his leadership, with 2017 seeing them up 17% on 2015 while their 2019 result was still better than 2015, this is on Starmer.

They were protected in 2019 by massive Brexit Party vote which has now gone to Tories. Corbyn did extremely well in 2017 and his polices were liked in 2019 but his leadership and Labour party weren't.

In 2021, areas with higher number of graduates have voted Labour in England (slightly) but areas where there are fewer have voted Tories.

What should be troubling is that areas like Hartlepool were targeted for biggest cuts during austerity years because they would always vote labour but now Tories are spending money they're picking up these deprived areas. How many other areas punished under Tories are now rewarding then with votes?

[dml1954]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

If we accept that currently Labour is a centre or centre right party (which I don't), as put forward by a number of people on here and people like Diane Abbott, there can be no doubt that they were soundly beaten in 2019 and yesterday by a party that is considerably further to the right in their policies. How on earth people can then advocate that, to regain their core voters, Labour need to lurch back to the left is totally beyond me. All the evidence is that they should become more right wing.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

I agree it is incredible but that's what one side of the labour party is saying this morning and the other faction is saying the exact opposite.
And they're doing it in public AGAIN!! That is just close party suicide

I don't like to agree but it is indeed political suicide

[surge]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

If we accept that currently Labour is a centre or centre right party (which I don't), as put forward by a number of people on here and people like Diane Abbott, there can be no doubt that they were soundly beaten in 2019 and yesterday by a party that is considerably further to the right in their policies. How on earth people can then advocate that, to regain their core voters, Labour need to lurch back to the left is totally beyond me. All the evidence is that they should become more right wing.

No one is saying current Labour is centre right. They're saying they're not centre-left/left enough.

Their polices (Brexit aside) weren't soundly beaten in 2019 and many live on as Tories have drifted left economically (and right authoritarian culturally). Tories won't be able to implement them properly though and no doubt the policies get blamed rather than Tories.

Labour need to be a broad church to win (and need to attract more voters than ever due to boundary changes, removal of cap on election spending and inherent bias in FPtP voting system) which means being more centre and more left. And more United behind that.

[Feedback]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

The increased profile of the Welsh Parliament since the Pandemic has been a bit of a godsend to Conservative voters because they can forget about the fact that Wales has a very limited kind of self Government with much of it dependant on how much Westminster allocates them and just start blaming Welsh Labour for everything. If we had the degree of independence you make it sound as if we had, there would be no point in there being a Plaid Cymru party.

the old chestnut that Wales is doing poorly because we aren't properly funded. We receive £15bn per annum in public expenditure than we generate in taxes. If Wales became independent, we'd be an economic basket case. It is all too easy for Welsh Labour to blame the lack of funding, but the Welsh government have considerably more power than any English region and receives considerably more funding per capita yet all English regions bar one have improved their lot compared to Wales in the lifetime of the Senedd. That tells me the Senedd and Welsh Labour is ineffectual and it is nothing to do with lack of funding. If it was down to funding, then the English regions would also struggle, but they have not.

Having the Tories in Westminster is an easy way out for Welsh Labour, as they don't have to be held accountable for their shambolic performance and can simply blame the lack of funding.

[Feedback]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

It helps to have an active and enthusiastic membership to campaign (phones, leaflets, doorstep, social media) in an election. It is not a good idea to attack and demoralise those members before an election so that a large proportion of them do not get involved. The hundreds of thousands speak to the millions. That's the way it works!

that's fair enough, but if you cannot resonate with the electorate, then it really does mean nothing

You are right - Labour is bereft of ideas. It wasn't a few years ago, and their ideas were popular. But what does Labour stand for under Starmer? Labour's campaign was ideas free. It had no identity. There was a thin pick and mix of national and local policies that totally failed to add up to a vision for the country or the local area.

That's left wing politics in general though. The world has moved on from the 1970s. Tony blair understood this and modernised the labour movement. Result = outstanding success.

The Anyone But Corbyn clique who now run the Labour Party really do need to 'step up to the plate'. Not for their own sakes, but for the millions who will pay the price for the Tory free run.

you say this as if its a bad thing.

[lardy]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

How can you state categorically that it was a lie when no one has yet had to prove it one way or the other.?
Until the end of the transition period which was about 5 months ago we were still paying into the EU. You talk as if we haven't done so for years . JOHNSON has said the NHS will get whatever money it needs to put things in order . I recall a figure of £1 billion being mentioned. That will be 3 years of 350 million . If and when it doesn't get it then we can say it was a lie but not yet. Don't make things up and try to sell them as fact.... again

The bus said £350m a week not £350m a year.

[Feedback]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

There are lots of reasons, why one would vote for the way they do (tory) and often fairly uncontroversial.
- Lower taxes

No. since 2010 the Tory government has collected more in taxes as a percentage of GDP than any other before it. It really is a myth that the Tories are the party of low taxes. Don't be fooled by headline rates.

- strong stance against illegal immigration

marvellous, lets ignore the fact immigration is actually good for the UK

- Less regulation for the self employed

perhaps you can have a word with the DWP and HMRC as they haven't read the memo. There is more bureaucracy for the self-employed than ever before.

- more business friendly

possibly. The jury is out

- Politics of aspiration

agreed

- Competition in education

whilst this is a good thing, i can't see why we cannot fund education so everyone has an Eton/Harrow type of education paid for by the state.

- Perceived to be more on the 'side' of freedom of speech

perception doesn't mean fact. This Tory government have clamped down on a lot of our digital freedoms

I am not saying I agree or support all the above talking points, but I am trying to display a general theme, that surely you can see why a local business man or self-employed builder who can afford to send their kids to a private school would vote conservative, without necessarily being an evil person.[/QUOTE]

[Tuerto]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

Huge support for far right parties in Oldham, Burnley , Bradford , Rochdale and massive change in previous Labour voting areas to conservative or further right

English Defence League , white , working class football fans

People arrested for racially aggravated public order offences don't tend to come from cyncoed and rhiwbina

Bernard Manning

Roy Chubby Brown

The black guy at work , we call him chalkie , its only a joke

Do some reading, take a look who has defeated fascism throughout the centuries, then ask yourself why racism and fascism rises in popularity amongst white, disengaged working class people.